Referees/VAR in the Premier League

[JoshBRFC+]

Enjoyed Carra and Neville‘s debate about VAR and other rules after the West Ham-Villa game just now.

Carragher’s Sly comment to Neville. “I bet you was the Milk Monitor in school” hahahahaha 

Edited November 30, 2020 by JoshBRFC

[DeadLinesman]

Bet he used to spit on the milk monitors in school.

[Danny]

20 minutes ago, DeadLinesman said:

Bet he used to spit on the milk monitors in school.

Oooh return burn

[Stan]

34 minutes ago, Lucas said:

Again, classic example. 

One line is on Watkins elbow, one line is the defender's shoulder.

Not only that, but Watkins was being fouled and it was missed?

It's so hard to comprehend.

Trying to work out what's happening here and I'm lost  

• line going down Watkins' left sleeve
• Blue line going from edge of sleeve of West Ham player
• Watkins is being fouled/held

That rule they brought in about a point on the upper arm being used as a barometer for what's legal or not was always destined to fail - the addition of using sleeves as some kind of measure to help with that doesn't help either considering sleeves will move about during any moment in the game and aren't going to be in the same spot on each player as we see above. 

This is partly what I was on about earlier as well. The angle of this still doesn't help as it alters the perspective of what it would look like if it was level and it might actually clear up the confusion we both have.

The more I look at the above the more confused I get  

[Burning Gold]

On 29/11/2020 at 17:06, LFCMadLad said:

I honestly don't think there was ever this many arguments (literally every game) before VAR mate. 

Conversations are now suffocated with it. Was never this bad.

It's a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy isn't it? I'm genuinely not saying any of this to have a pop at anyone in particular, but when people decide they hate VAR and jump in every thread (or real life conversation) telling everyone how much they hate it, stating absolute falsehoods, and offering half-baked "solutions", then yeah, that is going to spark discussions, possibly slightly heated ones, and derail actual conversation about the game.

It grates a bit when those people then turn around and make that an argument against VAR. It's borderline infuriating when those people are the TV presenters who literally set the agenda for post-match discussion 

[Danny]

The lines look fine I think, blue line as a whole looks a bit behind where Watkins is but the edge of that blue line is the measuring point and that’s pretty much where Watkins line is

Not seen the foul

[Spike]

Does football really need to be centimetre exact? Pitches aren't even the same size but we argue if someone was an atom offside.

Edited November 30, 2020 by Spike

[Burning Gold]

17 hours ago, Spike said:

Does football really need to be centimetre exact? Pitches aren't even the same size but we argue if someone was an atom offside.

Well the rules need to apply to all teams evenly, and the easiest way to do that is to have a precise definition and stick to it. Playing areas being different sizes is hardly unique to football, yet all other sports manage to apply their rules as precisely as the technology allows.

[RandoEFC+]

That line is drawn from Watkins' elbow. If he scored with that part of his body and it was allowed to stand it would be an absolute scandal so there's no justification for drawing the line from there, and yes it also looks like he's being fouled.

I think if you draw it from his forehead or shoulder it might still be offside but that shot makes it look ridiculous.

[Burning Gold]

Not that I'm accusing @Lucas of trying to pull anything, but that's not the final image, is it? It's a dotted line when they confirm it

[Azeem]

why do measure offside by arm ?

[Spike]

3 hours ago, Burning Gold said:

Well the rules need to apply to all teams evenly, and the easiest way to do that is to have a precise definition and stick to it. Playing areas being different sizes is hardly unique to football, yet all other sports manage to apply their rules as precisely as the technology allows.

Well that simply isn't true because no human is impartial and the instances such as fouls are up to the interpretation of the referee, not only that but the general interpretation of rules continues to change and will forever continue to change. And other sports have issues with technological rulings and their interpretations, it is just that those fans don't go into complete meltdown over the rulings every week like English football fans do. I watch American Football every week and there is always a debate on 'does he have control of the ball' for receptions/incomplete passes, but people get on with it on don't stew on it for months. In hockey there are instances of a player moving from the neutral zone over the blue line when the transition play happens, two minutes later a goal is scored of no consequence to the offside but the coach can challenge that ruling, often to debate; does the ruling stand or does the coach essentially delete two minutes of play, without returning the time to the game clock? Also in NHL, depending on what time of the season it is different penalties are called more thoroughly, cross-checking will never be called as a penalty in the play-offs but early in the season it will nearly always be a two minute minor.

That isn't even scratching the difference in rules in other Football Associations.

Edited December 1, 2020 by Spike

[Spike]

1 hour ago, McAzeem said:

why do measure offside by arm ?

because the arm is the most important tool in football, the QB has to use that to throw

[Burning Gold]

5 minutes ago, Spike said:

Well that simply isn't true because no human is impartial and the instances such as fouls are up to the interpretation of the referee, not only that but the general interpretation of rules continues to change and will forever continue to change. And other sports have issues with technological rulings and their interpretations, it is just that those fans don't go into complete meltdown over the rulings every week like English football fans do. I watch American Football every week and there is always a debate on 'does he have control of the ball' for receptions/incomplete passes, but people get on with it on don't stew on it for months. In hockey there are instances of a player moving from the neutral zone over the blue line when the transition play happens, two minutes later a goal is scored of no consequence to the offside but the coach can challenge that ruling, often to debate; does the ruling stand or does the coach essentially delete two minutes of play, without returning the time to the game clock? Also in NHL, depending on what time of the season it is different penalties are called more thoroughly, cross-checking will never be called as a penalty in the play-offs but early in the season it will nearly always be a two minute minor.

Didn't expect you to be pedantic over my use of the word all, but it's interesting that the example you picked is a sport with standardised pitch sizes

I don't think any of what you've said refutes my statement that other sports apply their rules as precisely as the technology allows. Of course video replay can't tell you definitively if there was a foul or whether the receiver had control of the ball, but it can tell you if the ball moved on contact with the ground, and it can tell you if the receiver got two feet down and "made a move common to the game"; it can tell you if a batman made his ground before the bails were removed, etc., etc.

[Spike]

4 minutes ago, Burning Gold said:

Didn't expect you to be pedantic over my use of the word all, but it's interesting that the example you picked is a sport with standardised pitch sizes

I don't think any of what you've said refutes my statement that other sports apply their rules as precisely as the technology allows. Of course video replay can't tell you definitively if there was a foul or whether the receiver had control of the ball, but it can tell you if the ball moved on contact with the ground, and it can tell you if the receiver got two feet down and "made a move common to the game"; it can tell you if a batman made his ground before the bails were removed, etc., etc.

Then I don't understand your initial argument and why you quoted me in the first place.

[Happy Blue]

It's been shocking everywhere it's been used including the CL, ruling Jesus goal out last night was just crazy!

[Azeem]

9 hours ago, Spike said:

because the arm is the most important tool in football, the QB has to use that to throw

That's the point though, why not measure it by the foot and how can a forward make a run for the ball when you have to worry about your arm run while titling yourself backwards? 

Edited December 2, 2020 by McAzeem

[Lucas]

So Robertson was penalised against Brighton and Fuchs was penalised against Fulham.

But because our player stayed on his feet, it's gone under the radar.

This is the problem. Inconsistencies. If he goes down there, no one is really complaining it's a penalty are they.

Edited December 5, 2020 by Lucas

[Dr. Gonzo]

9 hours ago, Lucas said:

So Robertson was penalised against Brighton and Fuchs was penalised against Fulham.

But because our player stayed on his feet, it's gone under the radar.

This is the problem. Inconsistencies. If he goes down there, no one is really complaining it's a penalty are they.

I’d complain because I don’t think they should be giving penalties that soft.

Underscores why I think so little of Kevin Friend though, can’t help but think he shouldn’t be allowed anywhere near our matches

[Stan]

9 hours ago, Lucas said:

This is the problem. Inconsistencies. If he goes down there, no one is really complaining it's a penalty are they.

This is the thing for me. Its the inconsistency thing. Even worse that it's the same ref. If he looks at the monitor maybe he has the Robertson thing in his mind and makes his decision. 

[Smiley Culture]

Fucking hell, that’s clutching at straws. Good excuse to dig out VAR though. 

[LFCMike]

20 minutes ago, Smiley Culture said:

Fucking hell, that’s clutching at straws. Good excuse to dig out VAR though. 

There was a penalty given for literally the same thing last week though

[Smiley Culture]

1 minute ago, LFCMike said:

There was a penalty given for literally the same thing last week though

There’s variables though. As well as it not being a penalty at all. 

[DeadLinesman]

I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again. Martial is the new Nani. Turns it on for a game or two and scored a few worldies, followed by half a season of mediocrity. He found some consistency last year but it’s disappeared, with no sign of it retuning.

[LFCMike]

16 minutes ago, Smiley Culture said:

There’s variables though. As well as it not being a penalty at all. 

Which is why it'll never work. It's certainly an incident that VAR shouldn't be getting involved in either way