Referees/VAR in the Premier League

[RandoEFC+]

A League have been doing it for a while. Their argument against here is not picking up footballers swearing in the referee's face on the microphones before the watershed. This is a drum that has been banged before.

If they're really interested in sorting it out they'll introduce an instant 3 match ban for any player caught using foul language by the officials' microphones. This will obviously be met with a mixed response but they manage it in other leagues and sports so it is objectively achievable. 

[Bluewolf]

16 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

A League have been doing it for a while. Their argument against here is not picking up footballers swearing in the referee's face on the microphones before the watershed. This is a drum that has been banged before.

If they're really interested in sorting it out they'll introduce an instant 3 match ban for any player caught using foul language by the officials' microphones. This will obviously be met with a mixed response but they manage it in other leagues and sports so it is objectively achievable. 

Totally agree about the ban on swearing.. They can't keep hiding behind the things that can be controlled like bans for swearing etc and it would also discourage players from gathering around the ref when things get a little heated, I don't see any reason why they couldn't just open up that communication channel once the ref is alone by the pitch side monitor for example when there is no-one else around him so it's just him and the guy in VAR talking... Once that discussion has taken place and we all know what's going on they can turn it off and the ref can make his decision accordingly... 

[Burning Gold]

51 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

A League have been doing it for a while. Their argument against here is not picking up footballers swearing in the referee's face on the microphones before the watershed. This is a drum that has been banged before.

If they're really interested in sorting it out they'll introduce an instant 3 match ban for any player caught using foul language by the officials' microphones. This will obviously be met with a mixed response but they manage it in other leagues and sports so it is objectively achievable. 

The other thing is what happens if they get it wrong. At the moment, they can take a few days to obfuscate and lie and maybe say that actually it was the correct decision. Maybe put out a few conflicting stories so people's anger isn't concentrated on the actual problem.

If they went down the live audio route and got it wrong (which will happen), there's nowhere to hide. There would have to be some level of accountability and repercussions, and they won't be doing that

[Bluewolf]

1 hour ago, Burning Gold said:

If they went down the live audio route and got it wrong (which will happen), there's nowhere to hide. There would have to be some level of accountability and repercussions, and they won't be doing that

That's why they won't do it over here and why they will do all they can to prevent that kind of change because exposing poor decision making means that they are then forced to deal with the problems. As it stands it's a case of shut up and put up, they can have poor performances and still be doing key roles like making VAR decisions with no comebacks at the moment which probably suits them just fine... no accountability whatsoever... 

[Eco]

22 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Most NFL refs are actually practicing attorneys and it’s actually a long process to move up from officiating kids football to the NFL (because the NFL wants to product the quality of their “product)” - so there’s a fair bit of quality control and they’ve got really intelligent people as officials.

That is true. 

Same with baseball here, to become an ump is so difficult and you can tell that these umps are so accurate. 

[Dan+]

Fundamentally does not work in football and never will, it is too little reward for too much sacrifice. You're aiming for a target you will never achieve and ruining a significant part of the sport in doing that. Reminds me of Covid.

[Burning Gold]

On 19/10/2020 at 15:15, Dr. Gonzo said:

Most NFL refs are actually practicing attorneys and it’s actually a long process to move up from officiating kids football to the NFL (because the NFL wants to product the quality of their “product)” - so there’s a fair bit of quality control and they’ve got really intelligent people as officials.

 

On 20/10/2020 at 13:31, Eco said:

That is true. 

Same with baseball here, to become an ump is so difficult and you can tell that these umps are so accurate. 

Surprised to read these, to be honest, given the amount of complaints there are about the level of officiating in both of those sports . There's a very real campaign for "robo-umps" in baseball, while the shout in NFL is "pay the refs" because the volunteers they get aren't deemed good enough. It's impossible to say whether they're better or worse than Premier League referees, but it's certainly not all rosy over there.

One thing I do think they get right is that the referees/umpires barely have to move. In the NFL, they may have to adjust their position slightly to get a good view, but there are so many of them they only have to worry about a small section of the field. They certainly don't have to run up and down all game to keep up with the ball while also trying to stay out of the way. Eliminating the physical fatigue and those others distractions makes it so much easier to get the decision right when they have to.

Edited October 22, 2020 by Burning Gold

[Dr. Gonzo]

17 minutes ago, Burning Gold said:

 

Surprised to read these, to be honest, given the amount of complaints there are about the level of officiating in both of those sports . There's a very real campaign for "robo-umps" in baseball, while the shout in NFL is "pay the refs" because the volunteers they get aren't deemed good enough. It's impossible to say whether they're better or worse than Premier League referees, but it's certainly not all rosy over there.

One thing I do think they get right is that the referees/umpires barely have to move. In the NFL, they may have to adjust their position slightly to get a good view, but there are so many of them they only have to worry about a small section of the field. They certainly don't have to run up and down all game to keep up with the ball while also trying to stay out of the way. Eliminating the physical fatigue and those others distractions makes it so much easier to get the decision right when they have to.

I can't tell you about baseball at all or what the fans of that sport think of their officials, tbh.

But honestly, NFL refs are about a million times more respected by fans than any football referee I've ever seen in my life... and quite frankly, that's because they make the correct decision most of the time. The times where calls are disputed, it usually gets talked about for weeks. You compare that with the refereeing oddities we see in England now and you get at least 1 high profile error each day there's a side playing it feels like. With the NFL referees go to review the video footage, they overwhelmingly make the right call.

The one time I'd heard of NFL referees being shite consistently was when the actual professional referees went on strike and they had to bring in school referees who were nowhere near as good (a lot of them are trying to become actual NFL refs and tbh it's a hard job to get, with lots of people trying to get that job and with the bar for entry being very high). It was basically like having League 1/2 referees in the premier league, it was incredible how bad they were. I think that might have actually been my first or second year in America, but it was definitely the first year I'd tried to get into the NFL so I remember that pretty vividly.

With the actual referees that are supposed to be officiating, I only really remember one really really egregious wrong call after it went to video review. NFL referees aren't perfect... but they're really fucking good in comparison to referees in a lot of sports. But it's American football, it's a sport where there's a shitload of dead time - the referees aren't getting absolutely knackered constantly running everywhere. They've also got huge teams of officials and (as far as I know because they want to be a bit secretive about VAR for some reason) use far more camera angles for reviewed decisions.

So there's obvious differences between the two sports - but I do think there's things we can learn from the standards the US expects of the NFL referees. We could go one step further and add a bit more transparency to VAR review by having the referees mic'd up so and asking them to explain their decision-making process to the TV. The NFL doesn't do this, but that short term XFL league from earlier this year had it (before COVID killed that league off) and... it was actually pretty great, and tbh any sport with video review should have the ref mic'd up.

[DeadLinesman]

God bless Ed Hochuli.

[Dr. Gonzo]

1 hour ago, DeadLinesman said:

God bless Ed Hochuli.

One of Arizona's most successful trial attorneys too. From Wiki:

Comparing his law and officiating professions, he says "A trial is nothing, pressure-wise, compared to the NFL. … I have that long [snaps his fingers] to make a decision with a million people watching and second-guessing (by video) in slow-motion. You've got to be right or wrong. I love the satisfaction when you are right — and the agony when you are wrong."[22] Hochuli finds similarities between the football field and courtroom saying, "On the football field, people like that I'm in charge and know what I'm doing, but a lot of the time, it's just appearance. I'm going to sell you on my decision. It's the same in the courtroom. You don't stand in front of a jury and say, 'I think my client is innocent.' You say, 'We're right!'"[9]

Which actually makes me think maybe NFL refs are just better at bullshitting  but I honestly think they're very good compared to refs in... just about everything.

Although that quote I guess does highlight how much pressure referees really are under.

[Rick]

On field referees don’t really get the hate nowadays. Not since VAR came in. I fully appreciate the pressure on the pitch; you’re exhausted, you’re seeing everything in real time and only once for the most part and you’ve got 22 players screaming at you constantly. 
 

You don’t have any of those factors effecting your decision in that little cubicle. And to consistently come to stupid decision while working in an absolutely ideal environment is just unacceptable. 

Edited October 22, 2020 by Rick

[LFCMadLad]

James Milner has now spoken out about VAR. A sad state of affairs when players feel like this:

"Sure im not alone in feeling like we are falling out of love with the game in its current state"

Gary Lineker replied"

"Absolutely. I was very pro the idea originally but happy to admit I was wrong. Its actually changed the sport we loved and certainly not for the better".

Its hard to disagree really. Nowadays goals are met with anxious silence by both players and supporters. Now this has happened then what is football actually about?

A soulless, technology driven sport most likely.

Sad.

[LFCMadLad]

VAR OVERTURNS - DECISIONS AGAINST Liverpool 8 Brighton 4 C Palace 4 Man United 4 Tottenham 4 Fulham 3 WBA 3 Aston Villa 2 Leeds 2 Newcastle 2 Wolves 2 Arsenal 1 Chelsea 1 Leicester 1 Man City 1 Southampton 1 West Ham 1 Burnley 0 Everton 0 Sheff Utd 0

[DeadLinesman]

48 minutes ago, LFCMadLad said:

VAR OVERTURNS - DECISIONS AGAINST Liverpool 8 Brighton 4 C Palace 4 Man United 4 Tottenham 4 Fulham 3 WBA 3 Aston Villa 2 Leeds 2 Newcastle 2 Wolves 2 Arsenal 1 Chelsea 1 Leicester 1 Man City 1 Southampton 1 West Ham 1 Burnley 0 Everton 0 Sheff Utd 0

Stay onside then maybe?

[Stan]

1 hour ago, LFCMadLad said:

VAR OVERTURNS - DECISIONS AGAINST Liverpool 8 Brighton 4 C Palace 4 Man United 4 Tottenham 4 Fulham 3 WBA 3 Aston Villa 2 Leeds 2 Newcastle 2 Wolves 2 Arsenal 1 Chelsea 1 Leicester 1 Man City 1 Southampton 1 West Ham 1 Burnley 0 Everton 0 Sheff Utd 0

Is that for this season? 

[Devil-Dick Willie]

49 minutes ago, DeadLinesman said:

Stay onside then maybe?

Ah yes, the team who often has the ball 60% of the time who plays long through balls to speedy forwards has had the most goals overturned. Crazy levels of conspiracy here. 

[DeadLinesman]

9 minutes ago, Devil-Dick Willie said:

Ah yes, the team who often has the ball 60% of the time who plays long through balls to speedy forwards has had the most goals overturned. Crazy levels of conspiracy here. 

I know we get some dodgy decisions, don’t get me wrong. However, when you’ve got fast teams that attack at pace, exactly what you said will happen. You’re more likely to be offside and have more chances at penalties simply because of the game of you play.

[LFCMike]

I said it in the match thread yesterday that VAR shouldn't be used for ruling out incidents like the Salah one. It should be used for ones like Mane's yesterday, absolutely. You can see in that incident Mane's clearly off. When they start drawing lines to try to show a toe or something offside it's gone too far. Sometimes drawing lines from the wrong part of the defenders body too let's not forget. I'm not having that they're always getting the right frame from when it's left the player passing the ball either

[Smiley Culture]

Weird how people get so offended and upset by the laws of the game being implemented when it comes to a player being offside by a matter of mm’s but are happy for goals to be given by a matter of mm’s. 

[LFCMike]

15 minutes ago, Smiley Culture said:

Weird how people get so offended and upset by the laws of the game being implemented when it comes to a player being offside by a matter of mm’s but are happy for goals to be given by a matter of mm’s. 

Offside was never meant to be reffed to the millimetre and the technology isn't good enough to do so

[Smiley Culture]

15 minutes ago, LFCMike said:

Offside was never meant to be reffed to the millimetre and the technology isn't good enough to do so

Offside is offside mate, whether it’s by 1mm or 1 yard. 

[Rick]

57 minutes ago, Smiley Culture said:

Offside is offside mate, whether it’s by 1mm or 1 yard. 

VAR was also brought in to fix clear and obvious errors. Not seeing Salah or any player being 1mm offside isn’t a clear error by the referees on the pitch. It’s farcical. 

[LFCMike]

1 hour ago, Smiley Culture said:

Offside is offside mate, whether it’s by 1mm or 1 yard. 

Again, the technology isn't good enough to call the really tight decisions. 

[DeadLinesman]

1 hour ago, LFCMike said:

I said it in the match thread yesterday that VAR shouldn't be used for ruling out incidents like the Salah one. It should be used for ones like Mane's yesterday, absolutely. You can see in that incident Mane's clearly off. When they start drawing lines to try to show a toe or something offside it's gone too far. Sometimes drawing lines from the wrong part of the defenders body too let's not forget. I'm not having that they're always getting the right frame from when it's left the player passing the ball either

I completely agree with this. @Smiley Culture is correct in that offside is offside, but we shouldn’t be taking minutes to decide these calls. For me, if it’s so close to call with the naked eye on a replay within 10/15 seconds, benefit of the doubt goes with the attacking team and you get on with the game. It’s become too heavily weighed in favour of the defenders.

[Smiley Culture]

20 minutes ago, Rick said:

VAR was also brought in to fix clear and obvious errors. Not seeing Salah or any player being 1mm offside isn’t a clear error by the referees on the pitch. It’s farcical. 

Being offside is a clear error pal.