ScoRoss Posted April 24, 2021 Share Posted April 24, 2021 8 hours ago, 6666 said: They want to get the balance right between having champions and having the best teams because being a champion of certain leagues doesn't mean much. Performances of clubs in Europe also decides how many spots their league gets. The system worked fine in my opinion. West Ham are currently about to automatically qualify for the group stages, even though their only European appearances in the last 10-15 years had them knocked out by Astra Giurgiu, twice. Ajax, the season after being a minute away from the final, had to play in multiple qualifying rounds just to get into the group stages. Dinamo Zagreb will have to play in four qualifying rounds to make the group stages. I'm not sure what West Ham have actually done to justify being parachuted in above these teams. It certain isn't any performances in Europe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny Posted April 24, 2021 Share Posted April 24, 2021 (edited) To say the current format of the Champions League is fine is to be ignorant as to why the ESL existed in the first place. For the past 16 years the Champions League finalists have all been clubs offered a place in the ESL. For the past 16 years it has not deviated away from those clubs. For clarity and just to pick an easy round number, of the last 20 finals, both finalists in 17 of them have been occupied by clubs who were offered a spot in the ESL. Of the 20 finals prior, only 6 of those finals were contested by two clubs eventually picked for the ESL. Conveniently the beginning of the ESL offered clubs domination in Europe began as TV money started to run football and started to drive the Champions League’s business model. The Champions League as a competition has been shaped so that it continuously benefits the biggest clubs financially, prolonging their dominance in the competition. UEFA and the Champions League competition are not for fair competition, they were just upset that the clubs were going to take the money for themselves. The fact that the new Champions League format’s biggest changes revolve around making more money for the ESL clubs through more games and allowing big clubs who fail to qualify a way back into the competition is indicative of the elitist mentality that UEFA have been encouraging for the past two decades. UEFA aren’t annoyed that the notion of fair competition was eroded by the formation of the ESL, they themselves have continuously encouraged it by financially doping these clubs for years, they’re just upset that their competition is not involved. Edited April 24, 2021 by Danny 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6666 Posted April 24, 2021 Share Posted April 24, 2021 5 hours ago, ScoRoss said: West Ham are currently about to automatically qualify for the group stages, even though their only European appearances in the last 10-15 years had them knocked out by Astra Giurgiu, twice. Ajax, the season after being a minute away from the final, had to play in multiple qualifying rounds just to get into the group stages. Dinamo Zagreb will have to play in four qualifying rounds to make the group stages. I'm not sure what West Ham have actually done to justify being parachuted in above these teams. It certain isn't any performances in Europe. Spots are given to leagues, not teams. Those spots are decided by how well teams from different leagues do in Europe as that determines the strength of the league. The period used for deciding the strength of a league could be shorter and the older format of the 4th placed team in the Premier League having to play a qualifying round maybe should be brought back. Could be adjusted here and there but the overall idea of stronger leagues getting more spots makes sense. West Ham finishing 4th in the Premier League should and does mean the same as Chelsea finishing 4th. Just because it's West Ham, who don't have a big history in Europe, doesn't mean how they qualified is any different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6666 Posted April 24, 2021 Share Posted April 24, 2021 2 hours ago, Danny said: To say the current format of the Champions League is fine is to be ignorant as to why the ESL existed in the first place. For the past 16 years the Champions League finalists have all been clubs offered a place in the ESL. For the past 16 years it has not deviated away from those clubs. For clarity and just to pick an easy round number, of the last 20 finals, both finalists in 17 of them have been occupied by clubs who were offered a spot in the ESL. Of the 20 finals prior, only 6 of those finals were contested by two clubs eventually picked for the ESL. Conveniently the beginning of the ESL offered clubs domination in Europe began as TV money started to run football and started to drive the Champions League’s business model. The Champions League as a competition has been shaped so that it continuously benefits the biggest clubs financially, prolonging their dominance in the competition. UEFA and the Champions League competition are not for fair competition, they were just upset that the clubs were going to take the money for themselves. The fact that the new Champions League format’s biggest changes revolve around making more money for the ESL clubs through more games and allowing big clubs who fail to qualify a way back into the competition is indicative of the elitist mentality that UEFA have been encouraging for the past two decades. UEFA aren’t annoyed that the notion of fair competition was eroded by the formation of the ESL, they themselves have continuously encouraged it by financially doping these clubs for years, they’re just upset that their competition is not involved. The best performing clubs in Europe getting the most money is how competition works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subscriber Dan+ Posted April 24, 2021 Subscriber Share Posted April 24, 2021 On 23/04/2021 at 09:44, Harry said: I've been wrestling in my head with how you fix football, not only in terms of how you'd rejig the CL but how do you reduce the number of games where the outcome is obvious, deliver an outcome where its feasible for Ajax, or Porto or Celtic or whoever to genuinely be capable of winning the ultimate honour, and where more teams in each country can win their highest prizes. Can't get past the big ass rich clubs being too powerful and making it impossible. I think it's too late in many ways. I've had these same debates with myself and see very little obvious solution other than taking away something that's already there - salary caps and whatnot only work if implemented everywhere, can 50+1 really be implemented in England at this point? I'd support it if it could but I'd have imagined that was quite hard now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subscriber Dan+ Posted April 24, 2021 Subscriber Share Posted April 24, 2021 This season alone should tell you how empty all those comments about player fatigue etc... were. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScoRoss Posted April 24, 2021 Share Posted April 24, 2021 53 minutes ago, 6666 said: Spots are given to leagues, not teams. Those spots are decided by how well teams from different leagues do in Europe as that determines the strength of the league. The period used for deciding the strength of a league could be shorter and the older format of the 4th placed team in the Premier League having to play a qualifying round maybe should be brought back. Could be adjusted here and there but the overall idea of stronger leagues getting more spots makes sense. West Ham finishing 4th in the Premier League should and does mean the same as Chelsea finishing 4th. Just because it's West Ham, who don't have a big history in Europe, doesn't mean how they qualified is any different. That's what should be changed. West Ham will have their places guaranteed by what others have done. Ajax are denied a place because of the others in their leagues. Ajax have earned a right more than West Ham have done, but are punished because of geography. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6666 Posted April 24, 2021 Share Posted April 24, 2021 1 minute ago, ScoRoss said: Ajax have earned a right more than West Ham have done, but are punished because of geography. Sounds like a super league of some sort is needed to guarantee them a spot at the top. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Posted April 24, 2021 Share Posted April 24, 2021 1 hour ago, Dan said: I think it's too late in many ways. I've had these same debates with myself and see very little obvious solution other than taking away something that's already there - salary caps and whatnot only work if implemented everywhere, can 50+1 really be implemented in England at this point? I'd support it if it could but I'd have imagined that was quite hard now. Part of me wondered if the richest clubs actually fucked off into a super league would the leagues left behind be better off? Revenues would drop in every league but so would prices for players, and it could actually be a better competition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScoRoss Posted April 24, 2021 Share Posted April 24, 2021 56 minutes ago, 6666 said: Sounds like a super league of some sort is needed to guarantee them a spot at the top. How is qualification, based on a clubs previous performance guaranteed? Unless you are deliberately missing the entire point? 2 hours ago, 6666 said: West Ham finishing 4th in the Premier League should and does mean the same as Chelsea finishing 4th. Just because it's West Ham, who don't have a big history in Europe, doesn't mean how they qualified is any different. Seems like you want guaranteed qualification, no matter what... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6666 Posted April 24, 2021 Share Posted April 24, 2021 39 minutes ago, ScoRoss said: How is qualification, based on a clubs previous performance guaranteed? Unless you are deliberately missing the entire point? Seems like you want guaranteed qualification, no matter what... I'm the one saying the name of the club doesn't matter. Do you think the rules should be changed because West Ham are doing well? You can't say certain leagues can have a certain number of spots based on what clubs are taking up what spots. You can't decide the format after the leagues have finished. People qualify through the league and finishing 4th in the Premier League is a bigger indication of quality than winning the Eredivisie because there aren't many good teams in that league. Of course a team that wins a shit league can prove that they're better than the reputation of their league and that's great but them being in shit league still decides their route into the competition. It's also not a fixed system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScoRoss Posted April 24, 2021 Share Posted April 24, 2021 10 minutes ago, 6666 said: I'm the one saying the name of the club doesn't matter. Do you think the rules should be changed because West Ham are doing well? You can't say certain leagues can have a certain number of spots based on what clubs are taking up what spots. You can't decide the format after the leagues have finished. People qualify through the league and finishing 4th in the Premier League is a bigger indication of quality than winning the Eredivisie because there aren't many good teams in that league. Of course a team that wins a shit league can prove that they're better than the reputation of their league and that's great but them being in shit league still decides their route into the competition. It's also not a fixed system. I'm using West Ham as an example. People have wanted this changed for years, the major leagues have just had an awakening in the last week to what the rest of us have known for a long time. I'm saying that guaranteeing spots for non Champions over other clubs is a good way to guarantee a monopoly by the larger leagues and then wondering why others can't compete. Copenhagen have proposed a system which would seed clubs based on their own merits rather than based on their leagues. So it's not impossible as suggested. https://onefootball.com/en/news/champions-league-revamp-could-harm-teams-from-europes-top-leagues-29258259?variable=20200225 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny Posted April 24, 2021 Share Posted April 24, 2021 5 hours ago, 6666 said: The best performing clubs in Europe getting the most money is how competition works. Yes and that is what has created a monopoly for a select group of clubs in the Champions League, it is why in t he last 20 years there have been 9 different winners and in the 20 before that were was 15. Winning silverware shouldn’t guarantee you a shit tonne of money to take into the competition the season after, consistently competing in the Champions League should create a wealth gap in your domestic league, that is how you stifle competition. The current model has literally created the need for a Super League, the current model is the inspiration for the Super League, it is simply one rung below a super league. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Käiser Posted July 9, 2021 Share Posted July 9, 2021 A league system containing 36 teams but clubs only play 10 other teams. how will this be determined and how will this be fair? comparing clubs based on their records against different opponents/schedules? Doesn’t seem right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator Stan Posted May 10, 2022 Administrator Share Posted May 10, 2022 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny Posted May 10, 2022 Share Posted May 10, 2022 28 minutes ago, Stan said: I don’t get this at all. Just 2 spots? Or two extra spots on top of 2 spots already? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucas Posted May 10, 2022 Share Posted May 10, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, Danny said: I don’t get this at all. Just 2 spots? Or two extra spots on top of 2 spots already? 2 extra spots. For example, if it was applied this season, England would get an extra spot (So 5th would qualify) and the Netherlands would also (So 3rd qualifies) as those are the countries with the highest coefficients in this campaign. It's just getting worse and worse. The new format is made primarily with the aim of having the biggest 16 teams constantly through, lessening the chances of your Ajax's, Villarreal's etc making the runs they have in recent years. Edited May 10, 2022 by Lucas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted May 12, 2022 Share Posted May 12, 2022 That method sounds far better than what was previously touted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScoRoss Posted May 15, 2022 Share Posted May 15, 2022 After the dismiss of the Super League, now was the time for UEFA to take back some spots from the bigger leagues. Or at least take back some automatic places from them. Instead, they do this shite and give what would be 5 automatic places to one country. Horrific. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spike Posted June 7, 2022 Share Posted June 7, 2022 With the latest restructuring of the CL, once again I am angry that the CL Isn’t just for league champions.I know it will never return to this format but I think it should given the existence of the Europa and the Conference or whatever it is called. https://www.espn.com/soccer/uefa-champions-league/story/4663021/champions-league-revamp-how-the-competition-will-work-from-2024-25 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subscriber RandoEFC+ Posted June 7, 2022 Subscriber Share Posted June 7, 2022 Well apparently fixture congestion is a real concern for the big clubs so I presume without reading the article they've replaced the Group Stage with an extra Knockout Round to streamline the process of reducing 32 teams to 16 over two legs instead of six group games. No? Another year of "let's abolish the League Cup at the expense of the bottom 86 teams in the Football League just so a few Man City players get a bit less tired around February" it is then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrangeKhrush Posted June 7, 2022 Share Posted June 7, 2022 I think the champions league should go back to the winners of their respective leagues, that will make the leagues more important. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azeem Posted June 7, 2022 Share Posted June 7, 2022 My interest in football will definitely decline from 2023 onwards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Blue Posted June 7, 2022 Share Posted June 7, 2022 For this competition to be taken seriously it has to be Champions only otherwise it's just a European FA Cup because currently it's not a Champions league is it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScoRoss Posted September 18, 2022 Share Posted September 18, 2022 Quote Clubs keen to explore Champions League games outside Europe This week brings the latest meeting of UEFA’s executive committee on the Croatian island of Hvar, before the general assembly of the European Club Association (ECA) in Istanbul later in the week, writes Adam Crafton. The ECA represents the interests of clubs that regularly compete in European football’s major competitions, such as UEFA’s Champions League. At these conferences, executives come together to explore ways in which they can grow the sport and drive revenues. The Athletic has learnt that one option favoured by some of the most powerful club executives in European football involves taking Champions League games outside of the continent to make meaningful games more accessible to the clubs’ global fanbases. The Paris Saint-Germain president Nasser Al-Khelaifi, who also chairs the ECA and is a member of UEFA’s executive committee, is among those supportive of such discussions, with leading club executives open to fixtures taking place in major markets such as the US, China or the Middle East. It remains only an idea rather than policy, and any moves to take the competition abroad would likely be met with opposition from fans in Europe. However, sources close to the discussions said initial steps would surround early group games rather than high-stakes knockout matches. Another option to take outside of Europe may be the Super Cup — the meeting between the previous season’s Champions League and Europa League winners. UEFA is already considering the introduction of a four-team mini-tournament at the start of each season, which would include the previous season’s Champions League winners and three other leading teams in what would be referred to as the “Opening Tournament”. Following the failure of the Super League project last year, UEFA conceded more power to clubs when it embarked on a joint venture with the ECA to identify marketing partners to sell commercial rights for European club competitions in the 2024-27 cycle. In February this year, UEFA and the ECA appointed Team Marketing and Relevent Sports Group as sales partners for the men’s club competitions. In March, Al-Khelaifi said they had seen an “amazing 39 per cent increase in the forecasted commercial value of the men’s UEFA club competitions for the post-2024 cycle”. The first three markets that have gone to tender have produced significant revenue growth — an increase of 20 per cent in the UK, 25 per cent in France and 150 per cent in the US (excluding Spanish-language rights, which are still to be sold). The case for taking matches abroad was underlined when the ECA last week released research on the changing nature of football fandom. It demonstrated survey results that claimed 34 per cent of football fans in China and 28 per cent in the US were influenced by a major competition or event to start following football. The report added: “This highlights that there are opportunities for European clubs and competitions to build on this interest and influence; to increase the availability of European club football to these audiences and allow exposure to these events to continue building further and deeper interest and engagement.” Sources close to discussions insisted there is no harm in ideas being debated and say the UEFA and ECA joint venture is the type of environment in which new ideas on the commercial side should be discussed at a time when clubs are looking for new revenue sources post-COVID-19. This week’s ECA summit will also host Stefano Domenicali, the CEO of Formula 1, as European football seeks to learn lessons and hear expertise from sports that have grown their audiences substantially in the US in recent times. Previous recent summits have featured talks from experts from the Harvard Business School, as well as the former Liverpool chief executive Peter Moore delivering a session on opportunities relating to the metaverse. The Super League is dead. These clubs aren't going to quit the Champions League, but why are they still caving to them? It's horrendous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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