Coronavirus (COVID-19) Outbreak

[Stan]

5 minutes ago, Harry said:

 You do wonder how this stories been broken. 

Nah I wonder how someone can be so fucking stupid to break their own rules 

 

[RandoEFC+]

UK hitting the top of the death charts in Europe despite having the most time to prepare, despite having the most insight into what was to come due to being the last country to get hit, and despite being a fucking island and despite having one of the very best health services in the world, is about as predictable as it gets. What's worse is that we're still posting daily death tolls in the 600s - we're far from done.

Nobody's allowed to criticise Boris/Brexit/the Tories it seems these days without being a naive left-wing remoaner Corbynite communist Islamophile self-hating Britain-hating muppet who just needs to get over it and whose shrill bleating is the whole reason the Tories won such a large majority at the last election, but I'm going to simply point out that we (well, you guys, I'm lucky enough to live on an island where the locally elected farmers, shopkeepers and electricians took sensible, proactive and well-communicated steps at the right time to keep this thing relatively under control) as a country voted to double down on this group of charlatans and lo and behold, the first serious challenge faced by the country in the aftermath, while unprecedented, has been absolutely bungled.

Then there's SAGE, what an absolute shit show. We're just going to ignore what's happened in all the countries in Europe as this virus has steamrolled towards us from across China, think that we know better than all of them and take a completely different route which fails and gets disproven within a week and decimates public trust in the scientists' competence to guide us through this crisis.

The foreign coverage of Britain's handling of this crisis is absolutely damning, and this government is lucky they have an ally across the Atlantic whose ongoing demented episode of Black Mirror makes the rest of the world look intelligent by comparison.

[Devil-Dick Willie]

9 hours ago, DeadLinesman said:

You lost me at ‘you’re being dumb again’.
 

You just compared road deaths, not accidents. There’s at least 25,000 severe casualties per year resulting in operations, xrays, after care etc, and that pales in comparison to to the 160,000 accidents per year that aren’t serious, yet require treatment of some form and police intervention. But yeah, cling onto that 1700 stat 

Honestly this might be one of the dumbest arguments I've ever been in. This is similar to "Don't open your windows, you're fading your wall paint unnecessarily"

Don't drive far you're more likely to have an accident fuck me 

[MUFC]

On 04/05/2020 at 15:20, Bluebird Hewitt said:

Love Island cancelled this summer due to coronavirus. Won't air until 2021.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-52528149

Without this show peoples IQ might increase.

[MUFC]

Is the so called second wave which worries me.

[Dr. Gonzo]

26 minutes ago, Harry said:

You just hope each governor is responsible about the way they lift things and appropriately prioritise things to open up.

Unfortunately, I can wholeheartedly guarantee that isn't the case. Some states have good governors, some have Trumpian morons that are following in the federal government's footsteps of just bumbling around and making inconsistent decisions like locking things down and then reopening them immediately (as we saw in Florida). And it's a country that's got around 25% of the population that wants to "re-open the economy" and doesn't care how many people die as long as the Dow Jones makes a speedy recovery before November.

Honestly, I think it'll get a whole lot worse before America starts to truly recover from this.

21 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

The foreign coverage of Britain's handling of this crisis is absolutely damning, and this government is lucky they have an ally across the Atlantic whose ongoing demented episode of Black Mirror makes the rest of the world look intelligent by comparison.

I think the UK's response has been pretty poor, but there's something to be said about that quick U-turn from the herd immunity plan to one of the more strict lockdowns in effect. And you can look across the Atlantic to several countries that are having a much worse go of dealing with the virus - the Americas are having several nations where the national response can best be described as an absolute shitshow. Nicaragua's not even put any restrictions in place.

I do think the north of Italy should have sounded the alarms to the government. The UK is small and densely populated, an infectious disease hitting the UK would likely spread quick and cause deaths. It's very easy to say this with the hindsight, and especially as it's something I've always believed in - especially after leaving the UK and getting shittier healthcare, but the NHS is probably the best thing about our government; it deserves more financial support from the government than it's received from Tory governments over the last 10 years.

I think there's loads of legitimate criticism that can/should be leveled at the government for how seriously they took the threat up until it reached the UK. Honestly, it sometimes seems like a lot of people didn't take it seriously until the virus infected BoJo. But I think it's at least commendable the government swiftly abandoned the herd immunity idea after listening to health experts that said over half a million would die. Lesser leaders in this era of "fuck the experts, my gut is right" could very easily just have ignored the experts and gone with their gut... and we've sadly seen examples of that actually happening.

But yeah, looking at the population density and how we've got the most deaths in Europe... it really does seem stupid that the people elected to, at the very base level if they're not providing anything, to provide for the safety of the public... weren't really working to protect the safety of anyone from the disease.

14 minutes ago, Devil-Dick Willie said:

Honestly this might be one of the dumbest arguments I've ever been in. This is similar to "Don't open your windows, you're fading your wall paint unnecessarily"

Don't drive far you're more likely to have an accident fuck me 

I've got 2 minds about it tbh.

On the one hand, I see what you're saying. There's nothing in that article that doesn't say they weren't following social distance guidelines. On the other hand, that's a pretty long distance to drive for what is pretty easily classified as unnecessary travel in this time where we're being told "don't make any unnecessary traveling." Yeah these guys might not have hurt anyone, but if you start getting more and more people going out and about for shite that's not necessary it sends the message that it's fine to just go anywhere. You've also got to remember the UK is pretty small and very dense - who's to say these guys didn't have COVID but were just asymptomatic or not?

I think part of what the government wants to achieve with the lockdown is to keep community spread isolated to those communities. Traveling long distances reduces the likelihood that communities won't start infecting other communities.

[Stan]

2 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I've got 2 minds about it tbh.

On the one hand, I see what you're saying. There's nothing in that article that doesn't say they weren't following social distance guidelines. On the other hand, that's a pretty long distance to drive for what is pretty easily classified as unnecessary travel in this time where we're being told "don't make any unnecessary traveling." Yeah these guys might not have hurt anyone, but if you start getting more and more people going out and about for shite that's not necessary it sends the message that it's fine to just go anywhere. You've also got to remember the UK is pretty small and very dense - who's to say these guys didn't have COVID but were just asymptomatic or not?

I think part of what the government wants to achieve with the lockdown is to keep community spread isolated to those communities. Traveling long distances reduces the likelihood that communities won't start infecting other communities.

Stop talking sense, it doesn't work mate. 

[Devil-Dick Willie]

Except you are allowed to travel long distances, for work purposes, and to infect people you have to come into contact with people. 

[Devil-Dick Willie]

4 minutes ago, Stan said:

Stop talking sense, it doesn't work mate. 

Not on you anyway. I feel sorry for your bird 

[Stan]

7 minutes ago, Devil-Dick Willie said:

Except you are allowed to travel long distances, for work purposes, and to infect people you have to come into contact with people. 

Going for fish and chips is now work purposes? Good to know. 

5 minutes ago, Devil-Dick Willie said:

Not on you anyway. I feel sorry for your bird 

Original banter good one. 

[Machado]

17 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I've got 2 minds about it tbh.

On the one hand, I see what you're saying. There's nothing in that article that doesn't say they weren't following social distance guidelines. On the other hand, that's a pretty long distance to drive for what is pretty easily classified as unnecessary travel in this time where we're being told "don't make any unnecessary traveling." Yeah these guys might not have hurt anyone, but if you start getting more and more people going out and about for shite that's not necessary it sends the message that it's fine to just go anywhere. You've also got to remember the UK is pretty small and very dense - who's to say these guys didn't have COVID but were just asymptomatic or not?

I think part of what the government wants to achieve with the lockdown is to keep community spread isolated to those communities. Traveling long distances reduces the likelihood that communities won't start infecting other communities.

Why did you have to not be passive aggressive? Ruining all the fun 

[RandoEFC+]

20 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

think the UK's response has been pretty poor, but there's something to be said about that quick U-turn from the herd immunity plan to one of the more strict lockdowns in effect. And you can look across the Atlantic to several countries that are having a much worse go of dealing with the virus - the Americas are having several nations where the national response can best be described as an absolute shitshow. Nicaragua's not even put any restrictions in place.

Hooray for Greatest Britain for only following the British exceptionalism science for a week, which flew in the face of actual real things that were happening in front of people's eyes in other countries, whose experts pleaded with us weeks in advance not to make the same mistakes they did.

The "we handled Covid 19 better than some third world countries in Central America" bank holiday should replace VE day with immediate effect.

[Devil-Dick Willie]

18 minutes ago, Stan said:

Going for fish and chips is now work purposes? Good to know. 

Original banter good one. 

I never said getting fish and chips was work purposes. But if people can move long distances for work purposes they aren't strictly limiting the virus spreading between communities are they? In fact, being A symptomatic and spending the day at work will lead to way more people in this new community being infected than grabbing a takeaway fish and chips one would speculate  

[Devil-Dick Willie]

13 minutes ago, Machado said:

Why did you have to not be passive aggressive? Ruining all the fun 

Honestly, he should have told me I'm so dense light bends around me then said that people shouldn't run baths because they might drown, straining the NHS unnecessarily 

[Dr. Gonzo]

50 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

The "we handled Covid 19 better than some third world countries in Central America" bank holiday should replace VE day with immediate effect.

that's not what I said though. There's 2 top 10 economies the UK national response is miles ahead of, so it's little minnows that our response looks better than. Like I said, the disease hitting Britain would always be bad - we're very densely populated, it's a highly infectious disease. And tbh, the 2 countries in the top 10 I can say the UK response has been categorically miles ahead are probably the most similarly styled sorts of politicians.

Look it's pretty clear we are in a low moment in British history politically & where faith in the UK government, from all parties, is pretty fucking low (and quite rightly so). And we've had several years of probably the most bitter and divided partisan politics I've ever seen in the UK. And we've seen a rise in people disregarding what experts have to say based off jingoistic nationalist bullshit that's not grounded in reality.

I think it's encouraging we see our government not follow in the footsteps of similarly styled idiot jingoistic leaders running other large countries that are economic powerhouses. It is, at very least, seeing the government do the bare minimum. Which in the US, we aren't seeing at a national level - and we also aren't seeing that with Brazil.

Like I said, there's plenty of legitimate things that Tories can be criticised for in the preparation and response. And when they go out and just tell lies or try to scapegoat and blame others for their response, that can be criticised too. I'm not saying that they shouldn't be criticised.

At the same time, if I'm seeing Tories remove heads from arses over important issues... I'm not going to discourage them from engaging in that sort of behavior. It's something that's much needed in UK politics and politics in the western world, more people collectively taking their heads out of their arses. Too many view politics like supporting a football club, but at the end of the day Tory voters, Labour voters, Lib Dems... we're all really on the same side.

Make no mistake, this is a global crisis. It's a global health crisis that's caused an economic crisis that we don't really know when/how it'll bottom out. Peoples' livelihoods are on the line, but more importantly so are peoples' lives. I think the government can rightly be criticised for it's lack of preparation, but in the face of the original plan failing disastrously the government they at least had the sense to not get people killed for no good reason.

I do think there's value in unity in times of crisis. Most of the nation needs to be onboard with a national plan to return life back to normal with the least amount. However, I don't think that means that the government just gets a free pass and can't be criticised.

tl;dr - the government's done shite they can legitimately be criticised for, but they've also done some stuff that I think is fairly commendable. I don't trust tories, but I'm also not going to go overly critical on a government that saw passed it's mistakes. There's still a number of people in the UK that think we should have taken Sweden's approach - without realizing Sweden is far less dense of a population & think the government lockdown is something that doesn't need to be taken seriously.

[Dr. Gonzo]

2 hours ago, Devil-Dick Willie said:

Except you are allowed to travel long distances, for work purposes, and to infect people you have to come into contact with people. 

Yeah but if you're traveling long distances for work right now in the UK, that's essential work. Whereas going to a famous chippy 200 miles away is definitely not essential. And again, we don't really know what contact they had with anyone and the restriction is the way it is right now with the purpose of slowing the spread.

[Happy Blue]

Got my test results back

Edited May 6, 2020 by Happy Blue

[Honey Honey]

It'll be a failure if the analysis of the UK late lockdown is driven by the concept of "exceptionalism" rather than a lack of transparency in technocracy. We only locked down once they had to air their research and conclusions and they could be openly scrutinised. They were allowed to get away with not doing that for too long. A level of trust was placed in them that might not have been with better open debate.

When technocrats lock away they remove outside knowledge and input. Experts who aren't part of the inner circle are shut out. They remove outside pressure which is what people who support technocracies want. Those of scientific background who oppose the lockdown often blame public and media pressure for it coming about.

Make no mistake, some nations technocrats backed lockdown and so get away with their lack of transparency but you can see even there more minor decisions which are questionable and they are expected to take it.

 

[Bluebird Hewitt]

6 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Too many view politics like supporting a football club, but at the end of the day Tory voters, Labour voters, Lib Dems... we're all really on the same side.

Great comparison really and unfortunately, it'll always be like that.

Rando mentioned that 'Nobody's allowed to criticise Boris/Brexit/the Tories it seems these days without being a naive left-wing remoaner Corbynite communist Islamophile self-hating Britain-hating muppet', yet plenty from the left do the exact same thing but is somehow justified in doing so. 

I've seen a few times from Welsh nationalists that 'if you vote for the Tories, you hate Wales and can piss off to England if it's that bad'. Granted, there are others who want devolution abolished (which I don't agree with as we should have our own laws) due to frustration with the Welsh Labour-run Government after 20 uninterrupted years in power. 

This again sounds like a defence of the Tories when in all honesty, I just don't like sheer hypocrisy from either side, mainly when one party does one thing, gets criticised by the opposition but will then do something similar, defend what they do and the die hard supporters shout down at those who ciriticse them. It's why I tend to criticise the Welsh Government often as they have a habit of doing this. 

Anyway, I'll stop there as it's starting to go off topic and there's a topic for UK politics in general. 

[DeadLinesman]

9 hours ago, Devil-Dick Willie said:

Honestly this might be one of the dumbest arguments I've ever been in. This is similar to "Don't open your windows, you're fading your wall paint unnecessarily"

Don't drive far you're more likely to have an accident fuck me 

Great comeback.

[Stan]

Quote

 

Expert 'on verge of virus findings' shot dead in US

University of Pittsburgh School of MedicineCopyright: University of Pittsburgh School of Medicine

A researcher who was said to be on the verge of making significant findings about the corinavirus has been shot to death in an apparent murder-suicide, US officials said.

Bing Liu, a researcher at the University of Pittsburgh School of Medicine, was found dead at an address in Ross Township, north of Pittsburgh, on Saturday, the local medical examiner said.

Shortly afterwards police found the body of a second man, Hao Gu, in a car less than a mile away. Investigators told NBC they believed Hao Gu had killed Dr Liu and then died of a self-inflicted gunshot wound. Police said an investigation was under way.

In a statement on its website, the medical school described Dr Liu - who had studied at the National University of Singapore - as an "outstanding researcher" who had made unique contributions to science. It said Dr Liu "was on the verge of making very significant findings toward understanding the cellular mechanisms" behind the coronavirus, adding: "We will make an effort to complete what he started in an effort to pay homage to his scientific excellence."

 

[Harry]

10 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Unfortunately, I can wholeheartedly guarantee that isn't the case. Some states have good governors, some have Trumpian morons that are following in the federal government's footsteps of just bumbling around and making inconsistent decisions like locking things down and then reopening them immediately (as we saw in Florida). And it's a country that's got around 25% of the population that wants to "re-open the economy" and doesn't care how many people die as long as the Dow Jones makes a speedy recovery before November.

Honestly, I think it'll get a whole lot worse before America starts to truly recover from this.

I agree with you about America. There is a worrying impatience coming through. I don't dismiss the economic impact argument though and I think there is a human argument to be made for getting the economy back firing.. A 20 year economic depression will be deadly and devastating and borne mostly by the younger generations and is absolutely something to be cautious about.

10 hours ago, Stan said:

Stop talking sense, it doesn't work mate. 

Let's be honest about the bikers. They weren't going for fish and chips, they were going for a ride because their bikers and being on the road is what they do. They stopped for chips at the halfway point of their ride.

I can sympathise with them copping fines and public shaming for this for two reasons

1. Because it's obviously a fairly low COVID risk exposure that's resulted from their actions in the scheme of COVID risk inducing activities.

2. Exercise is also a COVID risk exposure but it's one we accept because exercise is important to health and wellbeing. But maybe for bikers their wellbeing is more linked to being it on their bikes than going jogging.

I'm fairly sympathetic to some infractions because everyone's different and have different breaking points. I don't presume to know them or judge them without more information.

[Stan]

2 minutes ago, Harry said:

Let's be honest about the bikers. They weren't going for fish and chips, they were going for a ride because their bikers and being on the road is what they do. They stopped for chips at the halfway point of their ride.

I can sympathise with them copping fines and public shaming for this for two reasons

1. Because it's obviously a fairly low COVID risk exposure that's resulted from their actions in the scheme of COVID risk inducing activities.

2. Exercise is also a COVID risk exposure but it's one we accept because exercise is important to health and wellbeing. But maybe for bikers their wellbeing is more linked to being it on their bikes than going jogging.

I'm fairly sympathetic to some infractions because everyone's different and have different breaking points. I don't presume to know them or judge them without more information.

Where did you read this about stopping at the halfway point?

It's the principle of it all. What makes them better than anyone else to allow them to go for a ride? Why such a long ride and not around their own local area? Why, in particular, must they ride 100 miles which is quite an excessive amount to go for even if it is just for wellbeing reasons?

Exercise is a risk but there are clear guidelines about where, why and how you should do it to minimise that risk as much as possible. The same can't be said for bikers - while I get it may help their wellbeing, it doesn't excuse their 100-mile each-way trip for it. 

Also, if we're talking well-being, going for fish and chips kind of negates that !! Hardly the healthiest of meals...

[RandoEFC+]

48 minutes ago, Bluebird Hewitt said:

Rando mentioned that 'Nobody's allowed to criticise Boris/Brexit/the Tories it seems these days without being a naive left-wing remoaner Corbynite communist Islamophile self-hating Britain-hating muppet', yet plenty from the left do the exact same thing but is somehow justified in doing so. 

I'm not denying that there are as many muppets in pretty much whichever corner you look in. In fact, anyone who has loyalty to a political party is probably a massive idiot because they're basing their support of that party on identity regardless of their policies for government.

I have no partisan opposition to the Tories, nor do I have any partisan support for Labour. As a teacher and someone with a semblance of empathy for others, and someone who's very laid back about personal finances and so can't conceive of someone earning millions of pounds a year having a problem with paying more tax to support the health and education and living standards of those who aren't earning millions of pounds a year, it's basically impossible to imagine an iteration of the two where I'd ever vote for a Conservative party over a Labour party but at the same time I can happily admit that the prospect of facing this crisis with Jeremy Corbyn and Diane Abbott leading the charge doesn't fill me with glee either. It's incredible how easy it is to make that statement as someone who would have voted Labour if I still lived in England in December, but like you say, so many people (or more likely just the loud minority) simply can't do it. You're expected now to put all your eggs in one basket and if the basket falls to pieces and all your eggs are smashed to bits, you find the nearest rooftop and scream at the top of your lungs that you still made the right choice because the other basket would have broken 5 minutes earlier than yours.

I'd sooner have Blair, Gordon, Cameron, May, Miliband in a crisis than either of the offers that were on the table in December. Thank fuck I don't have to be as directly affected by the UK government anymore because all of the parties are so shit that they've all been shown up by the best farmers, shopkeepers and electricians they could find from the population of 90,000 on the Isle of Man to make up a government over here. I think I'm in a unique situation where I've seen a local, totally amateur government follow common sense and be proactive and cautious while across the pond you lot know no alternative to the utter incompetence that has infected Westminster (and by the sounds of it, your Welsh parliament) over the past few years. 

The problem with your comment is that it suggests the hypocrites only exist on the left. By saying that the hypocrites on the left are "somehow justified" you're joining in with the footballification of politics by implying that the right-wing hypocrites somehow don't get away with it when they clearly do in equal measure. The thing is, none of them get away with it, and none of them are justified, they just seek out the right echo chambers of like-minded idiots to convince themselves that they do/are, and when there's enough of them, they become emboldened enough to start inflicting it upon the rest of us.

If you read back through the thread (don't, you have better things to do), you'll see that I've tried my best to be objective and fair when analysing this response. I've praised Johnson's leadership, Sunak's policies and even defended Hancock to an extent. (Raab and Patel are still total morons whichever specs you put on, unfortunately). However, in my objective and fair opinion, we're reaching that point now where sympathy has run out for this government, whether they're Red or Blue, this crisis has been mismanaged spectacularly.

[Harry]

2 hours ago, Stan said:

Where did you read this about stopping at the halfway point?

It's the principle of it all. What makes them better than anyone else to allow them to go for a ride? Why such a long ride and not around their own local area? Why, in particular, must they ride 100 miles which is quite an excessive amount to go for even if it is just for wellbeing reasons?

Exercise is a risk but there are clear guidelines about where, why and how you should do it to minimise that risk as much as possible. The same can't be said for bikers - while I get it may help their wellbeing, it doesn't excuse their 100-mile each-way trip for it. 

Also, if we're talking well-being, going for fish and chips kind of negates that !! Hardly the healthiest of meals...

Lol. Some fair points mate but bikers I know (and cyclists for that matter) tend to go on big Sunday rides. I'll venture the far away chip shop is a route they've taken before and one they like to drive.

On the road is like being in a car it's a pretty contained environment unlikely to expose to many others provided they manage social distancing appropriately in any interactions.

Maybe this is two bikers that each live alone and are literally going out of their minds in isolation and just need to get the fuck out of the house to escape the suffocation of their loneliness. That is a definite wellbeing outlet. They could be two of the nicest guys you'll ever meet who are just at the end of their tether.

Alternatively they could be absolute bellends that have gone riding everyday even once they developed a suspect cold they couldn't be arsed getting tested for. There's not enough information for me to be sure I should assume the worst about them.