European Super League

[DNA]

5 hours ago, Smiley Culture said:

I’m just not sure how you can moan about “dead matches” in the current format while trying to push a new format that could see 29th v 32nd playing each other. 

It all looks like a power grab from a handful of clubs across the continent but seeing as some have trouble in the current Champions League format against perceived “lesser” teams, are they going to be happy coming fifteenth in this new format? 

That’s the most baffling part to me. Topping the group but then succumbing to a big night in a knock out is better than mid-table finishes and not quite making knockout surely. A fallen giant like United can save a bit of face in the current format, when they are a mid-table European side it takes the gloss off surely, but they are pushing for that... so Woodward must know something we don’t.

[RandoEFC+]

1 hour ago, Stan said:

So you're complaining about something you don't even watch any more, despite there being some odd and surprising results this season especially, as well as some groups still to be decided going in to the final matchday?

Just because I have a negative opinion on it doesn't mean I'm "complaining". The topic started because some guy said the tournament has lost its 'zing' and that speaks to me because I just don't get the hype around the Champions League anymore and haven't for a while, at least not the group stages. I'm simply stating why I don't find it entertaining and therefore don't watch or even really pay attention to the results. That all okay?

[Stan]

1 minute ago, RandoEFC said:

Just because I have a negative opinion on it doesn't mean I'm "complaining". The topic started because some guy said the tournament has lost its 'zing' and that speaks to me because I just don't get the hype around the Champions League anymore and haven't for a while, at least not the group stages. I'm simply stating why I don't find it entertaining and therefore don't watch or even really pay attention to the results. That all okay?

Woah, wasn't having a go at you?!

You agreed with it needing to restore its zing - I was just commenting back that also as a neutral, it hasn't lost it's zing and there are still shocks and results (not just one-offs) and some groups are still open even going in to the final matchday. It's not always as clear-cut as top 2 bigger sides go through and shock results are reversed by the bigger side and normality resumes. Was just saying that this season especially that has happened, especially in a group containing Shakhtar vs Real where Shakhtar won both games and up until 2 nights ago, Real Madrid and Inter Milan were 3rd and 4th in a group they were expected to go through?

So while the 'zing' being lost speaks to you, what speaks to me is that there is still a 'zing' and it's still somewhat entertaining.

We have a difference of opinion, is all. I don't see the need to get all defensive and sarcy and is quite unlike you . Didn't mean to provoke anything.

[RandoEFC+]

21 minutes ago, Stan said:

Woah, wasn't having a go at you?!

You agreed with it needing to restore its zing - I was just commenting back that also as a neutral, it hasn't lost it's zing and there are still shocks and results (not just one-offs) and some groups are still open even going in to the final matchday. It's not always as clear-cut as top 2 bigger sides go through and shock results are reversed by the bigger side and normality resumes. Was just saying that this season especially that has happened, especially in a group containing Shakhtar vs Real where Shakhtar won both games and up until 2 nights ago, Real Madrid and Inter Milan were 3rd and 4th in a group they were expected to go through?

So while the 'zing' being lost speaks to you, what speaks to me is that there is still a 'zing' and it's still somewhat entertaining.

We have a difference of opinion, is all. I don't see the need to get all defensive and sarcy and is quite unlike you . Didn't mean to provoke anything.

You haven't provoked anything, I just didn't see how I was "complaining". Usually that would be when someone bangs on about something when it's not really relevant because they're disproportionately bothered by it. I'm not talking about this year's Champions League, but I think I've made valid points about the group stages in general, they just really seem to drag on for me. Just a misunderstanding on wording I suppose.

[Dan+]

I really have come round to the thinking that the group stages are by and large just a bit shit for the most part. I did enjoy it when we were in it don't get me wrong but we aren't a good example to use, we're a novelty and they'd rather clubs like us didn't qualify anyway.

Sick of how many people within the sport opt for quantity of games over quality. It's ruined the Euros and it'll ruin the World Cup.

[Lucas]

You will never match the magic of the European Cup and UEFA Cup.

They lost that 'zing' when they let 3rd and 4th place qualify for the Champions League. Too much greed.

And too many clubs in it, simple. Less is more.

[Honey Honey]

1 hour ago, Lucas said:

You will never match the magic of the European Cup and UEFA Cup.

They lost that 'zing' when they let 3rd and 4th place qualify for the Champions League. Too much greed.

And too many clubs in it, simple. Less is more.

I actually think the group stages with 3rd and 4th rejuvenated the competition around the early 2000's after the first iteration of group stages had too many out of the depth teams in them.

[Dr. Gonzo]

I don't see any reason to change the current CL formula. I think the group stages this year have been very interesting tbh - I think this is attempting to fix a problem that doesn't exist.

[Cicero]

5 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I don't see any reason to change the current CL formula. I think the group stages this year have been very interesting tbh - I think this is attempting to fix a problem that doesn't exist.

Not to UEFA. If there's a way UEFA can earn more money and it isn't implemented, there's a problem. 

[Bluewolf]

20 minutes ago, Steve Bruce Almighty said:

I actually think the group stages with 3rd and 4th rejuvenated the competition around the early 2000's after the first iteration of group stages had too many out of the depth teams in them.

 

16 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I don't see any reason to change the current CL formula. I think the group stages this year have been very interesting tbh - I think this is attempting to fix a problem that doesn't exist.

Agreed... Although calling it the Champions League and having teams from the top 4 in it kind of makes no sense it has been a lot more interesting and we have had some cracking ties in the groups and knockout stages in the last few seasons that have made for some great entertainment from a neutral point of view... 

[Lucas]

2 hours ago, Steve Bruce Almighty said:

I actually think the group stages with 3rd and 4th rejuvenated the competition around the early 2000's after the first iteration of group stages had too many out of the depth teams in them.

Well that was kind of my original point. It should have remained as a knockout competition as the European Cup was. No groups altogether. Just two legged ties.

And because they limited the participants, it meant the UEFA Cup was a bloody strong competition to win. They didnt need to dangle a carrot for someone to win it, it was prestigious enough.

[Smiley Culture]

This year may be different for whatever reason but the group stages are, largely, a formality most years and there’s very few instances of genuine European heavyweights going out of groups they should be qualifying from with ease. You tend to get one, maybe two, groups where you look at it and three teams could make a case for qualification but majority of the groups have a huge disparity between the top two clubs and the bottom two and it results in games being monotonous and dull. Granted, you get the odd real shock result but it rarely seems to effect the European giants chances of qualifying. 

The competition livens up massively at the start of the knockout rounds. 

[RandoEFC+]

It does make me wonder why it's always the League Cup that needs to be scrapped, the Charity Shield that should be cancelled, the Premier League that needs to be reduced to 18 teams, the broadcasting companies who need to stop scheduling games on a Sunday lunchtime if that's too soon for the teams that played in Europe midweek. When a Champions League club has to jet off to Minsk, Kiev, Istanbul or Eastern Russia for a Champions League game this week, it's the trip up to Newcastle on Sunday afternoon that's made out to be the massive inconvenience if they get the 2pm kick off instead of the 4pm one. This comes even more from the media who have their own vested interest in protecting the European calendar than it does from the clubs themselves.

When do we have a conversation about fixture congestion in the context of how the European competitions are structured? The Community Shield is one game. The League Cup is 8 games if you get to the final I think (6 actually if you only enter at Round 3 because you're in Europe), the Champions League is 13 games if you get to the final, 7 of which include international travel unless the final happens to be hosted in your home country. Playing 13 matches to win a cup competition with 32 teams in it is a lot. When you get down to the last 32 in the FA Cup, it takes 5 wins and you've won the trophy. I'm not saying that the Champions League should be an out and out knockout competition instead but the six group stage matches alone only get rid of half of the teams.

Then you throw in all of the extra games generated in the Europa League by throwing all of the 3rd placed teams from the Champions League groups into the Europa knockouts (they still do this right?). All done to extend the European tournaments for extra money. But yeah, it's the League Cup that's the problem.

I'm not here to put forward sweeping changes to the format of the UEFA tournaments, and we can skip the part where we pretend not to know why all of the pressure is put on the relatively low-paying domestic calendar to bend to cater to the elite clubs. I'm merely pointing out that we've been arguing about the domestic calendar and fixture congestion in England for ages when there's plenty of scope to reduce the number of games in continental competition.

As for international football and suddenly playing 3 fixtures in a fortnight break instead of 2 post-Covid, I think most of us are more or less on the same page on that one.

[Danny]

I don’t really have a problem with the transformation of the CL and UC/EL, I think bringing 3rd and 4th has made the competition better. I think the two group stages was stale and need to go, but also I think double legged knock out ties are just a bit meh. Reduce them to a single tie, maybe even make a mini competition out of it if possible like they did in the Summer. But definitely go to a single round knock out.

Theyre trying to go American sports style with this breakaway league but they forget that the American sports system is built not to go stale because a shit team will get a good draft. That’s just not how football works here

[Honey Honey]

14 hours ago, Lucas said:

Well that was kind of my original point. It should have remained as a knockout competition as the European Cup was. No groups altogether. Just two legged ties.

And because they limited the participants, it meant the UEFA Cup was a bloody strong competition to win. They didnt need to dangle a carrot for someone to win it, it was prestigious enough.

My point is it had to change. The European Cup wouldn't be any good if it didn't have 3rd and 4th place teams in it. The moment players moved abroad in big numbers was the moment the European Cup just for champions format was finished. 

Imagine it now. Liverpool beating Malmo and Ferencvaros to reach the semi finals. 

The days of the likes of Celtic or Rangers being a difficult away game is gone. 

[Lucas]

51 minutes ago, Steve Bruce Almighty said:

My point is it had to change. The European Cup wouldn't be any good if it didn't have 3rd and 4th place teams in it. The moment players moved abroad in big numbers was the moment the European Cup just for champions format was finished. 

Imagine it now. Liverpool beating Malmo and Ferencvaros to reach the semi finals. 

The days of the likes of Celtic or Rangers being a difficult away game is gone. 

I get your point which is totally fair and maybe that is a bit of me being nostalgic to when European football was at its best. I would say I think it's slightly hypothetical because had it not changed, I don't think there would be as a big a gap as there is now. For me, it changed the state of play big time when they made that competition bigger. Such a shame as the early 90's was great for European Football.

I completely agree it couldn't be like that now though. I think they could streamline it, no more than two from each country, and a re-jig of the format, but it'll never happen. They will get their super league eventually.

[ScoRoss]

This is going to happen isn't it? A complete ambush of the smaller leagues and excluding them completely soon. Such a depressing outlook.

[Azeem]

10 group stage matches means probably 6 groups of 6 each. Top two to qualify for the KOs, best third place shit or play offs to make the final last 16

[ScoRoss]

22 minutes ago, McAzeem said:

10 group stage matches means probably 6 groups of 6 each. Top two to qualify for the KOs, best third place shit or play offs to make the final last 16

No groups. Seems to be a 'Swiss Model' similar to chess tournaments.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss-system_tournament

 

[ScoRoss]

20 minutes ago, McAzeem said:

10 group stage matches means probably 6 groups of 6 each. Top two to qualify for the KOs, best third place shit or play offs to make the final last 16

No groups. Seems to be a 'Swiss Model' similar to chess tournaments.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss-system_tournament

[Smiley Culture]

There’s enough clubs now to start putting pressure on UEFA. Madrid and Barca are behind a breakaway now, Juve have been a driving force for a while and the American led English clubs in Liverpool and United have been in discussions about it, too. I’m sure there’ll be plenty of others who’ll latch onto this, too. 

For domestic football, it kills it here. They’ll claim the after effects Covid but FA Cup replays won’t be a thing soon enough, as they’re not this year. That’s if the FA Cup still involves those in this bastardised money making machine that’ll be this competition. The League Cup will go as well. 
 

 

[ScoRoss]

'Safety net for big teams' 

Basically, Liverpool this season still qualifying for the Champions League next season, even if they finished 8th.

Also, more group stage games... Just want everyone wanted.

"Pigs get fat, hogs get slaughtered."

[RandoEFC+]

I can understand people putting these ideas forward from a purely selfish perspective but the fact that they're getting any other response beside being laughed out of the room shows you which way the tide is headed.

[Danny]

It’s sad that they’re trying to push elite European footballer more and more towards the American models.

Safe guarding spaces goes against the spirit of association football, there’s no argument for it other than £££

[Scouse_Mouse]

1 hour ago, Danny said:

It’s sad that they’re trying to push elite European footballer more and more towards the American models.

Safe guarding spaces goes against the spirit of association football, there’s no argument for it other than £££

Hopefully not. From salary caps, no promotion/relegation right down to the looney draft system.

Count me out.