Annual Next Everton Manager Thread - Rafa Benitez Hired

[Smiley Culture]

2 minutes ago, CaaC (John) said:

Jose has gone to Roma I thought?

SkyBet have offered odds on dead people getting jobs in football, silly things like being employed will mean nothing to them. 

[Honey Honey]

 

[CaaC (John)+]

Just now, The Premier Steve's said:

 

@RandoEFC would just love that to happen   

[Dr. Gonzo]

41 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

It's impossible to say who we should go for, because we should go for the person best placed to deliver on the next phase of the club's long term plan, and it's impossible to say what the club's long term plan is, or even whether there is one. That's what it boils down to.

It's got to be hard to have a long term plan when you're constantly having to replace the man overseeing any implementation of a long term plan. I suppose that was always the risk with someone like Ancelotti being the manager if there wasn't any immediate improvement - that some club with a higher profile would come in and ask him to help steady their ship. And profiles don't come much higher than Real Madrid (although, I think it's a terrible time to go manage them - and I think there's considerably less pressure to bring about gradual improvement at Everton).

It might be better, for the long term, to approach this appointment as a long term one - where setbacks in the short term, short of Everton being in a relegation battle, can be forgiven if it leads to long term improvement and development of Everton in a season or two. Obviously, football's a results driven business and results have to be decent enough...

I think Potter's a decent option. Brighton play good football, they've just got shit finishers. Everton have a pretty decent poacher in DCL... I could see him being fairly productive in a Potter side. On the flip side, there's a chance Brighton's coaching is the reason they're so shit at finishing... and he might ruin DCL/Richarlison.

[Dan+]

47 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

It's impossible to say who we should go for, because we should go for the person best placed to deliver on the next phase of the club's long term plan, and it's impossible to say what the club's long term plan is, or even whether there is one. That's what it boils down to.

I think the last 18 months have told us the answer to that. You went for short-termism (again) and have nothing to show for it (again). It's bleak and I really don't see an obvious solution.

[Dr. Gonzo]

5 minutes ago, Dan said:

I think the last 18 months have told us the answer to that. You went for short-termism (again) and have nothing to show for it (again). It's bleak and I really don't see an obvious solution.

At the time they were between Arteta & Ancelotti.

I don't think Ancelotti's a miracle worker or anything... but I do think Arteta at Everton would have been an absolute fucking disaster. I don't think the guy is up to being the Arsenal manager... I think trying to rebuild Everton's asking too much of him as well.

[RandoEFC+]

2 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

It's got to be hard to have a long term plan when you're constantly having to replace the man overseeing any implementation of a long term plan. I suppose that was always the risk with someone like Ancelotti being the manager if there wasn't any immediate improvement - that some club with a higher profile would come in and ask him to help steady their ship. And profiles don't come much higher than Real Madrid (although, I think it's a terrible time to go manage them - and I think there's considerably less pressure to bring about gradual improvement at Everton).

It might be better, for the long term, to approach this appointment as a long term one - where setbacks in the short term, short of Everton being in a relegation battle, can be forgiven if it leads to long term improvement and development of Everton in a season or two. Obviously, football's a results driven business and results have to be decent enough...

I think Potter's a decent option. Brighton play good football, they've just got shit finishers. Everton have a pretty decent poacher in DCL... I could see him being fairly productive in a Potter side. On the flip side, there's a chance Brighton's coaching is the reason they're so shit at finishing... and he might ruin DCL/Richarlison.

But this is exactly why we employed a Director of Football, because managers come and go when they either do well or badly. Moshiri employed Marcel Brands to oversee the footballing strategy alongside his handpicked manager Marco Silva. Marco Silva didn't pan out, so what does Moshiri do next? Employs Carlo Ancelotti who has a completely different outlook on how he wants us to play, completely undermining any of the early work done by the Director of Football he employed himself as the man to oversee the football side of things. You could describe Ancelotti's availability as exceptional circumstances but that hasn't panned out either so Moshiri this time needs to go ahead and take a big fucking step back.

I would be satisfied with Potter at this point. Give someone a chance to grow with the club. But until Moshiri and Kenwright step back and allow Marcel Brands to do the job he was brought in to do, whichever manager we get, we're just taking shots in the dark. With no actual consistent approach, philosophy or strategy, all we're doing is rolling the dice with manager after manager in the hope that we'll luck out and roll a double six.

[Danny]

Agree with @RandoEFC , the DoF keeps continuity. Genuinely shocked at the response here, as a manager you must have very little ambition if you decline Real Madrid after one season at a midtable Prem club. If they come calling the manager goes, whether it’s Ancelotti or Graham Potter.

[Smiley Culture]

5 minutes ago, Dan said:

I think the last 18 months have told us the answer to that. You went for short-termism (again) and have nothing to show for it (again). It's bleak and I really don't see an obvious solution.

Disagree. Ancelotti was possibly the right man at the wrong time but Everton desperately needed to hit reset after bad appointments in Big Sam, Silva, Koeman to some extent and Walsh and have spent much of Ancelotti’s tenure clearing the decks. Cutting Martina, Schneiderlin, Niasse, Sandro, Walcott, Tosun, Bolasie and Kean last summer was good business. Unlike when Ancelotti took over, there’s the base of a decent side at Everton now and another decent summer cutting the remaining fat and bringing in quality rather than quantity and they’re moving in the right direction as a club. I’m not sure how much of this is down to Ancelotti but they’ve done a good job turning the tide there. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

Just now, RandoEFC said:

But this is exactly why we employed a Director of Football, because managers come and go when they either do well or badly. Moshiri employed Marcel Brands to oversee the footballing strategy alongside his handpicked manager Marco Silva. Marco Silva didn't pan out, so what does Moshiri do next? Employs Carlo Ancelotti who has a completely different outlook on how he wants us to play, completely undermining any of the early work done by the Director of Football he employed himself as the man to oversee the football side of things. You could describe Ancelotti's availability as exceptional circumstances but that hasn't panned out either so Moshiri this time needs to go ahead and take a big fucking step back.

I would be satisfied with Potter at this point. Give someone a chance to grow with the club. But until Moshiri and Kenwright step back and allow Marcel Brands to do the job he was brought in to do, whichever manager we get, we're just taking shots in the dark. With no actual consistent approach, philosophy or strategy, all we're doing is rolling the dice with manager after manager in the hope that we'll luck out and roll a double six.

Moshiri really does need to take a step back and let Brands do the job he was hired to do. One plus I can see in hiring Ancelotti over managers more used to the typical "English" system of management - where the manager basically does much of the work the DoF does - is Ancelotti's worked with a DoF numerous times in his career.

I do think it's a bit weird that Everton went with someone that's got a much different style to Marco Silva - but I'm not 100% sure if we can fully explain Marco Silva's "brand of football" tbh - he's had so many jobs that lasted less than a season and he's shown remarkable inconsistency in his sides. For me, Everton's situation when they brought Ancelotti in was a no brainer: you've got a manager with that experience, pedigree, and reputation willing to join the club as the club needs someone to try to right the ship?

If he'd have been willing to stay and I was an Everton fan, I would have been very happy to keep letting Ancelotti do his work. Everton aren't going to turn into prime AC Milan overnight from the state they were in before he walked into the club. But obviously...  he's not been willing to stay... and now you're looking at your 5th rebuild in 5 years or something like that.

Dunno if Moshiri has always been very "hands on" in terms of his other businesses... I have met his ex-wife before (when they were still married), but I got no indication that he was any bit of an overcontrolling arsehole from that encounter  - but yeah, at this point the goal should be having a long term plan and sticking to that plan unless things go absolutely tits up. Otherwise you're just always going to be in a state of perpetually needing to rebuild... and as you know all too well.. there's no real chance of progress if you're always in a rebuild.

[RandoEFC+]

7 minutes ago, Dan said:

I think the last 18 months have told us the answer to that. You went for short-termism (again) and have nothing to show for it (again). It's bleak and I really don't see an obvious solution.

I wouldn't say it was "again". Martinez and Silva were certainly appointments that were intended for the long term. I don't think Koeman ever made a secret that he saw the club as a stepping stone but there was no reason to believe he wasn't going to give us 3-5 years if he did well. Allardyce was a stop gap and all parties know that, he doesn't count. Ancelotti's appointment was a "hail mary". I don't think even that was short termism to be honest. It's just a lack of joined up thinking employing managers with wildly different approaches and requirements one after the other.

None of these managers should have been incapable of growing with the club or guiding us through the first/next stages of a project though. It's more the ripping it all up every time that holds us back.

Expecting to appoint a manager that lasts more than 3 years at our level is utterly naive. Leicester are actually good at this stuff and even they went through 3(?) duds before getting it right with Rodgers. It's also lucky for you that he's already failed at Liverpool otherwise Arsenal, Chelsea or Spurs would have had him off you by now. 99% of cases only the very elite clubs can hang on to managers if they do well. Clubs like Everton can't just expect to find their own Pep or Klopp.

The priority is deciding on an approach, and the manager can never be viewed as indispensable, because if they're above average they get poached, and if they're below average they get sacked.

[6666]

Nuno to Everton while Tottenham waste time trying to get Pochettino or Conte.

[Dr. Gonzo]

41 minutes ago, 6666 said:

Nuno to Everton while Tottenham waste time trying to get Pochettino or Conte.

I think Nuno would be a shit appointment at Spurs, tbh.

[Honey Honey]

Everton would have been in the top 4 if they didn't get beat by the teams at the bottom of the league. No one needs to rebuild to beat Sheffield United and Fulham at home.

Ancelotti leaving looks like a good opportunity to put right his failing. Discuss. 

[Dan+]

15 hours ago, RandoEFC said:

I wouldn't say it was "again". Martinez and Silva were certainly appointments that were intended for the long term. I don't think Koeman ever made a secret that he saw the club as a stepping stone but there was no reason to believe he wasn't going to give us 3-5 years if he did well. Allardyce was a stop gap and all parties know that, he doesn't count. Ancelotti's appointment was a "hail mary". I don't think even that was short termism to be honest. It's just a lack of joined up thinking employing managers with wildly different approaches and requirements one after the other.

None of these managers should have been incapable of growing with the club or guiding us through the first/next stages of a project though. It's more the ripping it all up every time that holds us back.

Expecting to appoint a manager that lasts more than 3 years at our level is utterly naive. Leicester are actually good at this stuff and even they went through 3(?) duds before getting it right with Rodgers. It's also lucky for you that he's already failed at Liverpool otherwise Arsenal, Chelsea or Spurs would have had him off you by now. 99% of cases only the very elite clubs can hang on to managers if they do well. Clubs like Everton can't just expect to find their own Pep or Klopp.

The priority is deciding on an approach, and the manager can never be viewed as indispensable, because if they're above average they get poached, and if they're below average they get sacked.

I'm not talking just the manager here. It's the recruitment as well. I do think it's naive to appoint a manager and assume they will be there for years and think you should be on a continuous lookout for replacements as you do with players. I just think while a lot of your signings weren't poor in isolation, you've not had loads to show for it and as a collective you paid quite a lot of money to get nowhere.

I mean you allude to Leicester. I was no fan of Puel by any means but he finished higher with us than Ancelotti did with Everton and during his tenure we'd recruited better than you have done. There was a general feeling with Puel that we could do better with this group of players and that he'd put the handbrakes on. I suppose a question you would ask is do you think Rodgers could come into Everton in the position you are now and get you to 5th? I'm far from convinced.

[RandoEFC+]

1 hour ago, Dan said:

I'm not talking just the manager here. It's the recruitment as well. I do think it's naive to appoint a manager and assume they will be there for years and think you should be on a continuous lookout for replacements as you do with players. I just think while a lot of your signings weren't poor in isolation, you've not had loads to show for it and as a collective you paid quite a lot of money to get nowhere.

I mean you allude to Leicester. I was no fan of Puel by any means but he finished higher with us than Ancelotti did with Everton and during his tenure we'd recruited better than you have done. There was a general feeling with Puel that we could do better with this group of players and that he'd put the handbrakes on. I suppose a question you would ask is do you think Rodgers could come into Everton in the position you are now and get you to 5th? I'm far from convinced.

I don't disagree. It all goes hand in hand and the bottom line is that Steve Walsh was put into the wrong job as a Director of Football, then we got someone who is actually established and proven in the role, and our first managerial appointment since he joined the club was Carlo Ancelotti, who the club aren't going to say no to if he wants to bring James Rodriguez and Allan to the club, even if it flies in the face of the Director of Football's job to implement a transfer strategy that transcends the manager of the day and allows the club to build some continuity. I understand why they did it but the risk of something like this happening could and should have been foreseen. 

Moshiri always wanted a big name. It's been about statements for him too many times. Big stadium, big name manager, big name star player coming in. All hallmarks of him wanting to Everton to feel like a big club. There's another way for Everton to feel like a big club, and that's for him to look after the stadium and the funding, and for the football operation to start building success on the pitch. He shouldn't be involved in the latter any more than Duncan Ferguson should be involved in seeking out sponsorship and negotiating contracts. I just hope the lesson is learned this time. But if there are any consistent hallmarks of Moshiri's time at Everton, nobody could say that learning from setbacks is really one of them. 

[Dan+]

7 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

I don't disagree. It all goes hand in hand and the bottom line is that Steve Walsh was put into the wrong job as a Director of Football, then we got someone who is actually established and proven in the role, and our first managerial appointment since he joined the club was Carlo Ancelotti, who the club aren't going to say no to if he wants to bring James Rodriguez and Allan to the club, even if it flies in the face of the Director of Football's job to implement a transfer strategy that transcends the manager of the day and allows the club to build some continuity. I understand why they did it but the risk of something like this happening could and should have been foreseen. 

Moshiri always wanted a big name. It's been about statements for him too many times. Big stadium, big name manager, big name star player coming in. All hallmarks of him wanting to Everton to feel like a big club. There's another way for Everton to feel like a big club, and that's for him to look after the stadium and the funding, and for the football operation to start building success on the pitch. He shouldn't be involved in the latter any more than Duncan Ferguson should be involved in seeking out sponsorship and negotiating contracts. I just hope the lesson is learned this time. But if there are any consistent hallmarks of Moshiri's time at Everton, nobody could say that learning from setbacks is really one of them. 

This is kind of what I'm getting at though, you've taken move after move, 'statement' after 'statement' and it's gotten you nowhere really. The obvious solution in this instance I suppose is to just try and utilise Brands. If you aren't going to this time then he might as well leave. With Everton I feel like there've been too many instances of throwing your eggs into one basket and it not actually paying any dividends at all. I don't think you can look back on the Ancelotti reign as anything other than yet another period of unfulfillment. Finished below newly promoted Leeds and didn't even make a cup semi. Just painfully mediocre sadly.

[DNA]

I think Ancelotti’s experience in Merseyside of his place being robbed was a factor, his daughter was alone in the house and traumatised.

[Stan]

Ouch. That's quite cutting from Carlo.

 

[Cicero]

Wow. Didn't expect that from him. 

[Lucas]

No fucks given. Quite disrespectful to Everton, that.

He's gone down in my estimation a little, I actually think he's one of the likeable one's as well so he's tainted himself a bit for me.

I actually think the fact he is quite a likeable guy actually deterred from the negative, turgid football Everton served up. Had Big Sam been there doing the same he'd have been slaughtered.

Make's me appreciate Bielsa even more now. Could never see him doing that to us.

[RandoEFC+]

19 minutes ago, Stan said:

Ouch. That's quite cutting from Carlo.

 

 talking out of his arse. He wasn't paid what he was to finish 12th and 10th with some of the most unwatchable football in the league. He knows it and everyone knows it. Anyone with two brain cells to rub together isn't buying it. It's still disappointing from him but this is what managers do in these scenarios, attempt to rewrite history on their terms to save face and protect their reputation. I also expected a bit better from him, these aren't far off Mourinho level comments, but at the same time he's hardly going to admit to the press that he realised the scale of the job at Everton after this year and took the easy way out when a plum job at Real Madrid cropped up.

Some are speculating that something happened behind the scenes. Not a single player has posted on social media wishing him well. Don't really know if that's normal or not.

[Rick]

Went down in my estimations when he fucked off not a week after saying how he’s definitely staying. Might be the blueshite’s but I’m not a fan of that sort of disrespect. 

[Tar-Mairon]

it sounds really classless and disrespectful to me, considering nobody forced him to take the Everton job (he has enough clout in the game not to be desperate for work and throw himself into anything, if he feels that way) and he has been talking in the last year about long-term projects, the feeling of the club, being there for the new stadium, the wonderful fans etc. I get that sometimes things happen in life that we don't expect but after all that, it looks like he's just treating them with sneering condescension, didn't-mean-any-of-that, you're-lucky-I-lowered-myself. 

I can't think of many managers currently in the league, whatever their faults, being like this to their club. It's not like he pulled up trees this season.

Might be a blessing in disguise for them, depending on who they get next, if this is how he feels.

 

 

[Stan]

3 minutes ago, Tar-Mairon said:

it sounds really classless and disrespectful to me, considering nobody forced him to take the Everton job (he has enough clout in the game not to be desperate for work and throw himself into anything, if he feels that way) and he has been talking in the last year about long-term projects, the feeling of the club, being there for the new stadium, the wonderful fans etc. I get that sometimes things happen in life that we don't expect but after all that, it looks like he's just treating them with sneering condescension, didn't-mean-any-of-that, you're-lucky-I-lowered-myself. 

I can't think of many managers currently in the league, whatever their faults, being like this to their club. It's not like he pulled up trees this season.

Might be a blessing in disguise for them, depending on who they get next, if this is how he feels.

 

 

This. Could have just been a bit more pleasant or sincere about it. He's basically just thrown a lot of shade Everton's way for no real reason at all. Even if it was an 'unexpected opportunity' I don't get the thinking behind such cutting comments.

As others have said, expected better from someone with his standing in the game.