Russia and Ukraine

[Devil-Dick Willie]

If what you speculated on comes to pass, fine, you didn't misrepresent the war. But posting a pile of shite report on what might happen tomorrow with "more war crimes" as your comment is misrepresentative if it doesn't happen. Lets see how 'bullet proof' this source is. 

[RandoEFC+]

2 hours ago, Devil-Dick Willie said:

I've always despised war, the politicians who herd their people into it, and the justifications provided. I don't need to change my profile picture, be active on twitter or provide any other virtue signals to prove it. You clearly do for whatever reason and I'm just being critical of that. You actions are alien to me, and you likening prediction football transfers to predicting civilian casualties shows how far apart I feel we are in this

This combination I didn't appreciate either, for the record.

8 minutes ago, Devil-Dick Willie said:

If what you speculated on comes to pass, fine, you didn't misrepresent the war. But posting a pile of shite report on what might happen tomorrow with "more war crimes" as your comment is misrepresentative if it doesn't happen. Lets see how 'bullet proof' this source is. 

I didn't speculate on anything. I posted a tweet from a verified foreign correspondent from a national UK newspaper and because the woman included "we're looking at war crimes" as a part of it, I posted "more war crimes" as a correction because they've already attacked at least one hospital and at least one orphanage.

You extrapolated that into all sorts of shite about me and I remain disappointed that you've made no effort to admit where you've crossed the line.

3 hours ago, Devil-Dick Willie said:

I've always despised war, the politicians who herd their people into it, and the justifications provided. I don't need to change my profile picture, be active on twitter or provide any other virtue signals to prove it. You clearly do for whatever reason

Just reflect on that one part for me and imagine how you'd feel if someone said that to you, with the anti-war sentiments that we both share, based on absolutely no evidence. You might disagree on me posting that tweet but show me the common decency at least to take this back because it's the polar opposite of who I am.

[Rick]

Devil Dick Willie Is really living up to his middle name here. Get off the high horse that you’ve built yourself. 

[Machado]

I'm embarrassed to be an European today. We've not done enough, today is already too late.

[Azeem]

18 minutes ago, Machado said:

I'm embarrassed to be an European today. We've not done enough, today is already too late.

Why?

[Devil-Dick Willie]

13 minutes ago, Aladdin said:

Why?

I think as a Portuguese person Machado shouldn't be, but it's because Europe has done nothing of substance to assist Ukraine. 

 

1 hour ago, RondónEFC said:

This combination I didn't appreciate either, for the record.

I didn't speculate on anything. I posted a tweet from a verified foreign correspondent from a national UK newspaper and because the woman included "we're looking at war crimes" as a part of it, I posted "more war crimes" as a correction because they've already attacked at least one hospital and at least one orphanage.

You extrapolated that into all sorts of shite about me and I remain disappointed that you've made no effort to admit where you've crossed the line.

Just reflect on that one part for me and imagine how you'd feel if someone said that to you, with the anti-war sentiments that we both share, based on absolutely no evidence. You might disagree on me posting that tweet but show me the common decency at least to take this back because it's the polar opposite of who I am.

I apologize for considering you to be a virtue signaler. 

 

[Devil-Dick Willie]

34 minutes ago, Rick said:

Devil Dick Willie Is really living up to his middle name here. Get off the high horse that you’ve built yourself. 

I feel very strongly about the circle of absolute clowns eating this up like it's entertainment. And I'll push back against anyone I perceive to be engaging in that behavior. I'm not happy with everything old Rando said, but definitely made him out to be much worse in my head than he actually is in reality, for which I am sorry. 

The media (which we all know I fucking hate to high heaven) is spoon-feeding the masses piles of dogshit, grounded in tragedy and death, and the people can't get enough of it. It's sickening. 

[Azeem]

6 hours ago, Cicero said:

Was it? Thought the Ukrainian president confirmed it?

Better not to believe anything from any side for sure while the conflict is going on. 

[Spike]

5 hours ago, RondónEFC said:

You're now literally making stuff up left, right and centre. I haven't made a single post on Twitter about this conflict, it's just a place to get news from, and it happens to be easy to transfer said news in Tweet form to this forum, where I am talking about it.

As for my actions. They are as follows: talking about this conflict in this thread on an Internet forum.

And your actions: talking about this conflict in this thread on an Internet forum.

But tell me more about how my actions are "alien to you". Fucking hell mate. All I've tried to do is understand what your problem was in the first place with me posting about an intelligence report and suggesting the bombing of civilians is a war crime. All you've done is start piping up about America and deflecting onto other conflicts which, whilst also tragic, have nothing to do with the matter at hand, and that's all I've said.

I haven't disagreed with anything you've said about other conflicts. You could probably write a 10,000 word essay on the hypocrisy of Western media when it comes to international conflict and war crimes, and on people changing their profile pictures on social media only doing so because it's the only thing they can or will do to make themselves sleep a bit easier while humans elsewhere commit atrocities against each other, and I probably wouldn't disagree with a single word of it.

But now you're taking behaviour you've seen from other people and projecting it onto me. First it was "I'm fed up of people misrepresenting this war" which I haven't fucking done. Then it was "I'm fed up of people only caring about wars because it's white people getting killed" which I haven't fucking done. And now you're directly accusing me specifically of virtue signalling by changing my profile picture or something, which I very explicitly, you guessed it, haven't fucking done.

We've been knocking around on this forum on and off for a frighteningly long time, and I've never thought you were a bellend, but I've now put a fairly reasonable portion of my Friday night trying to have this conversation with you in good faith. As far as I can see at this point, we are yet to actually disagree on anything apart from possibly the war crimes bit and me using the admittedly stupid example of prediction leagues to make a point about talking about things that might happen before they actually happen. You'll have to forgive me when I grow even more frustrated if you choose to continue quoting my posts back and either misrepresenting them, arguing with points I haven't made as if I have, or flat out making things up that I very clearly haven't said or done.

And by the way, I was listening to SOAD yesterday so if you were in any doubt, that should prove that I'm actually sound and we can be at peace here. While listening to Prison Song's lyrics I actually thought wow, what the fuck, this song is from 21 years ago and none of it has got any better.

Anyway...

I'm also anti-war. It's astonishing to me that we've been around for thousands of years yet still kill the shit out of each other over which scientifically debunked ancient story book we believe in, or the imaginary lines that corrupt ancestors we've never met drew between two pieces of land.

However, if you can't stop wars from happening (and you can't), the next step is to at least try and and draw a distinction between different acts that can be carried out at war. If you kill 20 soldiers in order to secure an airfield that provides a strategic advantage in your campaign, well then that's horrific because you just killed a bunch of people, and your war is illegal anyway. But if you blow up a school bus or set fire to a hospital just to terrify the civilians on the other side, then that's also horrific, but it isn't the same as the first one, it's just wanton violence against humanity for the sake of it. It's worth investing some time and energy into the 'second best' outcome where, even if you can't prevent war and loss of life itself, you at least create a consensus where certain behaviour, even within wartime, is out of bounds. Of course it doesn't always work. Putin has blown up schools, the US blew up schools in the Middle East not long ago I'm sure. But if we don't make the effort to create the consensus that it's beyond the pale to target the young, elderly and vulnerable who pose your military operation no threat or obstacle, well that's a whole lot more blown up schools and hospitals right there, each of which is a travesty in its own right.

We'll never live in a perfect world but if we really care about right and wrong we shouldn't sneer at people who are fighting for every inch between the world we live in and the fantasy utopia where war isn't a thing that exists.

Uh mate, I think you are arguing against someone else, because you are addressing points I didn’t make nor ever intend to make, I think you grossly misunderstood whatI was stating,

[Reluctant Striker]

I really don't see how the financial sanctions are going to have this medium to long term effect people are hoping for.

I hate to use the word Brexit, but a certain group of people voted for a certain amount of less favourable trading conditions due to idealistic world views.

Putin doesn't strike me as someone who places great value on open global markets. Certainly not above his apparent desire for a return to the Soviet Union era.

[Rick]

1 hour ago, Devil-Dick Willie said:

I feel very strongly about the circle of absolute clowns eating this up like it's entertainment. And I'll push back against anyone I perceive to be engaging in that behavior. I'm not happy with everything old Rando said, but definitely made him out to be much worse in my head than he actually is in reality, for which I am sorry. 

The media (which we all know I fucking hate to high heaven) is spoon-feeding the masses piles of dogshit, grounded in tragedy and death, and the people can't get enough of it. It's sickening. 

Nobody here is eating this up like entertainment though, all of us would rather go back to our normal lives, discussing how fucking useless Harry Maguire is as a footballer. But it’s a major situation unravelling closer to our homes and something that could directly affect the majority of people on this board if it spills over into a NATO country. Which isn’t exactly outside the realms of possibility when you have a mad cunt like Putin as the aggressor. 
 

I feel heartbroken for all those poor fuckers in Ukraine having to fight for their land, and it’s not because they aren’t brown. 
 

 

 

[RandoEFC+]

18 minutes ago, Spike said:

Uh mate, I think you are arguing against someone else, because you are addressing points I didn’t make nor ever intend to make, I think you grossly misunderstood whatI was stating,

I clearly have misunderstood then because I've reread it and still would say the same thing. I'm not trying to say that you think bombing schools and killing soldiers is the same thing if that's what you took from it, but I maintain that there's value in defining war crimes as things that you do not do, even if you're at war. Obviously this remains secondary to preventing war in the first place.

[Spike]

4 minutes ago, RondónEFC said:

I clearly have misunderstood then because I've reread it and still would say the same thing. I'm not trying to say that you think bombing schools and killing soldiers is the same thing if that's what you took from it, but I maintain that there's value in defining war crimes as things that you do not do, even if you're at war. Obviously this remains secondary to preventing war in the first place.

No, you still got it wrong.

[Stan]

Learning a lot more as easy day goes on. Didn't even realise SWIFT existed before this whole debacle began. 

 

[Tommy]

Hungary are the only EU country opposing Russia's swift ban now. 

[RandoEFC+]

3 hours ago, Spike said:

No, you still got it wrong.

Are you going to explain then?

[Azeem]

Quite a few videos circulating where Ukrainian citizens are confronting Russian soldiers, if they are true there seems no fear from Ukrainian people and real aggression from Russian soldiers towards them, does that mean a general lack of animosity because of 'Slavic' relation ? 

Pointing out this because such interaction between soldiers and people in war zones usually results in horrible things because of mixture of fear and misunderstanding, US's operations abroad and Russian's own military operations elsewhere for reference 

[Michael]

Avaaz - Stop this war

I don't know if this is against the forum rules, but if it is not, I urge everyone to sign this open letter to call for the war in Ukraine to end.

[Tommy]

1 hour ago, Aladdin said:

Quite a few videos circulating where Ukrainian citizens are confronting Russian soldiers, if they are true there seems no fear from Ukrainian people and real aggression from Russian soldiers towards them, does that mean a general lack of animosity because of 'Slavic' relation ? 

Pointing out this because such interaction between soldiers and people in war zones usually results in horrible things because of mixture of fear and misunderstanding, US's operations abroad and Russian's own military operations elsewhere for reference 

I'd say Ukrainians and Russians see themselves as brothers and sisters. Especially among younger people. There's also many reports about Russian soldiers surrendering to the Ukrainians, because they don't actually want to kill people. 

[Fairy In Boots]

It goes with out saying Putin is a dictator he does some unsavoury things.

But I find the shrieking and comparing of him to Hitler ridiculous we’ve (the west or more specifically the US and it’s NATO allies who are basically ran by the US) poked the bear here, what did we think would happen? 
 

My prediction for endgame here is he will annex the Donbas and leave western Ukraine to its devices and peace deal will mean no NATO membership for new Ukraine.

[El Profesor]

48 minutes ago, Fairy In Boots said:

It goes with out saying Putin is a dictator he does some unsavoury things.

But I find the shrieking and comparing of him to Hitler ridiculous we’ve (the west or more specifically the US and it’s NATO allies who are basically ran by the US) poked the bear here, what did we think would happen? 
 

My prediction for endgame here is he will annex the Donbas and leave western Ukraine to its devices and peace deal will mean no NATO membership for new Ukraine.

 

I agree. But at the same time, I understand why people do that.

Hitler is for us what the Napoleon and the French revolution was to people in the 19th century. Any historical event is measured and compared to Hitler and the World War II. We still very much live in the shadow of that war.  

By the way, I saw a guy on Twitter comparing Putin´s invasion of Ukraine not with Hitler´s agression of Czechoslovakia but with Mussolini´s invasion of Ethiopia in 1935. I agree, that was a very good point. It´s a much better comparison. It was a widely condemned attack and it isolated Mussolini, driving him to the arms of a more powerful ally, Nazi Germany. 

Before the invasion of Somalia, Mussolini and Hitler didn´t get along very well, considering both had conflicting claims regarding austrian territory. 

I think the same could happen with Russia. Ukraine will make Russia into a pariah state and will drive Putin to the arms of China.

 

Edited February 26, 2022 by El Profesor

[Tommy]

19 minutes ago, El Profesor said:

 

I agree. But at the same time, I understand why people do that.

Hitler is for us what the Napoleon and the French revolution was to people in the 19th century. Any historical event is measured and compared to Hitler and the World War II. We still very much live in the shadow of that war.  

By the way, I saw a guy on Twitter comparing Putin´s invasion of Ukraine not with Hitler´s agression of Czechoslovakia but with Mussolini´s invasion of Ethiopia in 1935. I agree, that was a very good point. It´s a much better comparison. It was a widely condemned attack and it isolated Mussolini, driving him to the arms of a more powerful ally, Nazi Germany. 

Before the invasion of Somalia, Mussolini and Hitler didn´t get along very well, considering both had conflicting claims regarding austrian territory. 

I think the same could happen with Russia. Ukraine will make Russia into a pariah state and will drive Putin to the arms of China.

 

I can see why people call you El Profesor. 

[Azeem]

5 minutes ago, Tommy said:

I can see why people call you El Profesor. 

He's in my top 2 of TF365 smart people hierarchy list

[Tommy]

Just now, Aladdin said:

He's in my top 2 of TF365 smart people hierarchy list

Is the other person yourself? 

[Azeem]

Zelensky tweeted implying Turkey may close Bosporus for Russian warships !!! If confirmed this can be huge