UK Politics & Brexit Discussion

[Honey Honey]

What is rarely ever mentioned about free tuition is that this is predominately used by the middle class. So whilst banging on about the plight of the poor actual resources are being allocated to the middle class kids.

Get this... just recently the SNP scrapped maintenance grants for kids from poor backgrounds who go to university. I went to a Scottish university and got a letter through my door from them last year begging me to make a donation to help them provide money for poor kids.  

Free education or free prescriptions are not a virtue, they should be open to the scrutiny of resource allocation. Nothing is truly free. The way student loans work in England is that the individual who benefits from the education pays for it themselves through a slightly higher tax on their future productivity as they earn. No one is denied education because they can't afford tuition. The government acts as their guarantor on the debt market and use HMRC to recollect the loan. The stupidity of English tuition fees is issuing debt that won't be repaid because they are too high which means other tax payers will be chipping in to wipe the debt off in the future.

[Burning Gold]

Reuters reporting that we've told the EU we'll trigger Article 50 on March 29th

[Fairy In Boots]

In 9 days time we inform 'ze Germans' that we'll not be having any of their Empire nonsense again. Can't fucking wait 

[Panflute]

Good for Britain to free itself from the EU.

A Nexit is quite far away after our latest elections. Something has to happen in the next decade, otherwise Holland can considered to be non-existent and it'll be time to move on.

[oliveandblue]

11 hours ago, Panflute said:

Good for Britain to free itself from the EU.

A Nexit is quite far away after our latest elections. Something has to happen in the next decade, otherwise Holland can considered to be non-existent and it'll be time to move on.

I know there are issues that come up in particular places, but is this situation really that bad?  The media would have you think that the apocalypse is taking place. 

[Danny]

Scottish Independence has become a joke now, how can you have a referendum and then push for another referendum because of a democratic decision made afterwards. Complete bollocks.

I voted to remain, majority voted Brexit, that's democracy.

On the subject of Brexit, I look forward to when we leave the EU and people are still complaining about immigration and overloaded schools/hospitals. Also can't wait to see nowhere near, or if any of the amount of the EU "fee" that was promised to be put into the NHS throughout the campaign actually get put back in it. Probably carry on cutting the NHS down and closing needed departments and A&E's.

[Danny]

2 hours ago, oliveandblue said:

I know there are issues that come up in particular places, but is this situation really that bad?  The media would have you think that the apocalypse is taking place. 

There were lies and exaggerations on both sides, Remainers predicting an apocalyptic crash if we left, Leavers under the weird assumption the UK was powerless and being ruled under some Brussels led dictatorship. In the end the dictatorship argument won.

[oliveandblue]

45 minutes ago, Danny said:

There were lies and exaggerations on both sides, Remainers predicting an apocalyptic crash if we left, Leavers under the weird assumption the UK was powerless and being ruled under some Brussels led dictatorship. In the end the dictatorship argument won.

The UK would have had more power staying in the EU and acting as a counterbalance to Germany.  They are not in a position to behave like the USA.

[DeadLinesman]

1 hour ago, oliveandblue said:

The UK would have had more power staying in the EU and acting as a counterbalance to Germany.  They are not in a position to behave like the USA.

To be fair, the USA aren't in a position to behave like the USA at the moment.

[Fairy In Boots]

3 hours ago, Danny said:

Scottish Independence has become a joke now, how can you have a referendum and then push for another referendum because of a democratic decision made afterwards. Complete bollocks.

I voted to remain, majority voted Brexit, that's democracy.

On the subject of Brexit, I look forward to when we leave the EU and people are still complaining about immigration and overloaded schools/hospitals. Also can't wait to see nowhere near, or if any of the amount of the EU "fee" that was promised to be put into the NHS throughout the campaign actually get put back in it. Probably carry on cutting the NHS down and closing needed departments and A&E's.

Wether we stayed in or out the reality is long term as it currently is our welfare system and by that I mean NHS & Pensions is a time bomb that we can't continue to throw cash at. 

3 hours ago, Danny said:

There were lies and exaggerations on both sides, Remainers predicting an apocalyptic crash if we left, Leavers under the weird assumption the UK was powerless and being ruled under some Brussels led dictatorship. In the end the dictatorship argument won.

I think most leavers expected a dip or even a small recession for 18 months. Also "weird assumption" we're under some sort of dictatorship is the funniest thing I've seen on this topic in some time. You can't seriously think that Germany doesn't use its big boy status to leverage the direction of the Union in its favour, their fucking currency is massively undervalued causing them to have a competitive edge on their western rivals. 

2 hours ago, oliveandblue said:

The UK would have had more power staying in the EU and acting as a counterbalance to Germany.  They are not in a position to behave like the USA.

Nope power was being eroded away, through legislation and directives. The EU was a trading agreement which has progressed into a political union. It's now having its own army as it chips away at each country's little differences in order to assimilate them with the Brussels mantra.  

I voted Brexit, I know we're  not the old empire nor will we replicate that. We're industrious and entrepreneurial so we'll be alright I do fear for some of Europe's individual states unless they can free themselves from it. We'll see how lovely the EU are when they officially get notice, I expect spiteful petulance 

Edited March 27, 2017 by Fairy In Boots

[Inverted]

4 hours ago, Danny said:

Scottish Independence has become a joke now, how can you have a referendum and then push for another referendum because of a democratic decision made afterwards. Complete bollocks.

I voted to remain, majority voted Brexit, that's democracy.

On the subject of Brexit, I look forward to when we leave the EU and people are still complaining about immigration and overloaded schools/hospitals. Also can't wait to see nowhere near, or if any of the amount of the EU "fee" that was promised to be put into the NHS throughout the campaign actually get put back in it. Probably carry on cutting the NHS down and closing needed departments and A&E's.

I myself voted No in 2014, have never voted SNP, and I think it's perfectly legitimate to argue that we have another referendum. In Scotland we value EU membership very highly, and the direction that English/British politics has went in is entirely contrary to the principles that support the broadly centre-left consensus up North. Our Tories are probably more pro-EU than the Labour party currently is rn under Corbyn's leadership. 

When Brown and Darling made their massive last-gasp pushes before the vote in 2014, the EU was at the absolute crux of the whole issue. We were told that we would risk our membership, whereas the UK was a safe bet - remember back then almost nobody thought that Brexit would actually happen, the vote was meant to be formality, so that Cameron could calm down the upper-class Brexit nutters in his party.

Unfortunately for all the normal working people of this country, especially in Scotland and NI, where the Murdoch media isn't trusted so much and the vacuous rhetoric of UKIP isn't taken credibly, the power games of Etonian school boys have hit their wallets pretty hard.

[Honey Honey]

3 hours ago, oliveandblue said:

The UK would have had more power staying in the EU and acting as a counterbalance to Germany.  They are not in a position to behave like the USA.

The UK has never been a counter balance to Germany. It has been its main ally on matters of the economy and finance, acting as a dual counter balance to some of the more overbearing interferences that the less free market oriented nations come up with.

I'm not sure what you mean with behave like the USA because the USA are retreating under Donald Trump whereas the UK will be doing the complete opposite under David Davis. If there is any lesson from the USA then it is the reality that the problems of the industrialised towns will not be fixed by trade deals, so they perhaps have some misguided hope right now like Obama gave those in the US. Get it wrong like Obama and risk these towns turning to someone who makes 1950s socialist speeches about tariffs.

 

 

 

[Danny]

2 hours ago, Fairy In Boots said:

Wether we stayed in or out the reality is long term as it currently is our welfare system and by that I mean NHS & Pensions is a time bomb that we can't continue to throw cash at. 

I think most leavers expected a dip or even a small recession for 18 months. Also "weird assumption" we're under some sort of dictatorship is the funniest thing I've seen on this topic in some time. You can't seriously think that Germany doesn't use its big boy status to leverage the direction of the Union in its favour, their fucking currency is massively undervalued causing them to have a competitive edge on their western rivals. 

I'm not questioning Germany or any country within the EU uses its status for its gain, just that the hysteria about "having our own laws" and "running our own country again" was well over the top, as if we actually lived under some form of dictatorship where we weren't in control, we were some in control we've decided to leave the EU.

[Inverted]

People had a woeful lack of understanding about the legal situation with our EU membership - the actual proportion of our laws mandated by EU Directives is far below what the average person would assume. 

And the whole "sovereignty back" nonsense is just legally meaningless. Parliament has always had sovereignty, we are only in the EU by virtue of an act of Parliament. We didn't give up any sovereignty to the EU, we voluntarily decided to cooperate with, and take part in a union. And are now voluntarily deciding to stop that. 

Not to mention how few people understand that the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg is completely unrelated to the EU. The UK's insularity and paranoia means the media and public happily conflates every form of international agreement we take part in as one massive idea of "Europe". 

Edited March 27, 2017 by Inverted

[Honey Honey]

Brexit has been a political disaster. Constantly rehashing the debate almost one year on is precisely why. I have watched on in despair as I have seen good centrist people move further and further into the arms of the conservative party. When you imply people are idiots or stoopid racists they don't come over to your side they go wherever they are valued.

Brexit has let the bourgeois leftist cat out the bag. Tim Farron, Blairites, the Guardian, the Independent. Elitism and hatred is pouring out of the megaphone. The echo chamber is preventing self-awareness and leading to self-defeating beliefs such as that Brexiteers are bogeymen and that Brexit can be stopped.

It's a gift to Theresa May who just had to do a slight centrist virtue signal to clean up. May gets to allow Farage and UKIP to be the Brexit extremists who piss borderline people off instead of her party. Whilst labour and Lib dems have remain extremists within their parties sending those borderline voters right into Mays arms.

[Panflute]

11 hours ago, oliveandblue said:

I know there are issues that come up in particular places, but is this situation really that bad?  The media would have you think that the apocalypse is taking place. 

Having no control over your own country is pretty bad, yes.

[Bluebird Hewitt]

It begins. Article 50 has been triggered.

Didn't see it officially happening in all honesty.

[Berserker]

[6666]

After everything the government took away from the public while having "no control" I wonder how they'll fuck us over now that they finally have some control.

It's a good thing that these cunts have more power... 

[Honey Honey]

The real coverage begins now.

The last 3 months the mainstream media have dragged out yesterday's politicians, war criminals, shysters and losers to beg this doesn't happen for the sake of their viewing figures. We can actually have meaningful coverage now.

It is still to be seen if the government makes a deal which actually returns the democratic functionality of the rights which were sacrificed and weakened in the numerous treaties, or if the government just makes a deal designed to appease the here and now attitudes such as with immigration.

[Dr. Gonzo]

Merkel has rejected May's calls for parallel trade talks. The uncertainty over what will happen with British trade is probably the most unsettling thing for our economy, and stability will only come once it has been negotiated where we'll stand in the scheme of global trade.

Ultimately, we've got the EU with the most leverage in trying to protect its interests... but at the same time the EU may be in it's death throws. And at the same time, there might be a dissolution of Britain as we know it in the aftermath of Brexit. The next two years will certainly be interesting. I don't think there's any way to really avoid a bumpy road ahead, until there can be more certainty as to what the fuck will actually happen during the next two years.

[Happy Blue]

2 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Merkel has rejected May's calls for parallel trade talks. The uncertainty over what will happen with British trade is probably the most unsettling thing for our economy, and stability will only come once it has been negotiated where we'll stand in the scheme of global trade.

Ultimately, we've got the EU with the most leverage in trying to protect its interests... but at the same time the EU may be in it's death throws. And at the same time, there might be a dissolution of Britain as we know it in the aftermath of Brexit. The next two years will certainly be interesting. I don't think there's any way to really avoid a bumpy road ahead, until there can be more certainty as to what the fuck will actually happen during the next two years.

We will do lots of trade with America & Asia and some of the European country's  ..think we will be fine 

[Honey Honey]

Merkels move is just part of the gamesmanship to come. The EU's primary target is to extract as much money from the British taxpayer as possible. Rejecting trade negotiations is trying to force the issue they want and preventing the UK from having a similar trade deal to Canada who don't have to pay a penny. They're going to fight to make this generation of Brits accept giving a debt burden to unborn babies to fund projects that have no ROI for the exchequer.

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

1 hour ago, HoneyNUFC said:

Merkels move is just part of the gamesmanship to come. The EU's primary target is to extract as much money from the British taxpayer as possible. Rejecting trade negotiations is trying to force the issue they want and preventing the UK from having a similar trade deal to Canada who don't have to pay a penny. They're going to fight to make this generation of Brits accept giving a debt burden to unborn babies to fund projects that have no ROI for the exchequer.

 

They've also got the incentive to make it unappealing as fuck for anyone else to leave the EU, because like Brits, they're going to be approaching this from a self-interested point of view rather than caring about the British public. They're fighting to keep the world's largest trade block in tact. And yes, it has become a political union (rather than the economic union that we were promised when we joined) - but they're fighting to keep Europe strong in global trade and to keep the EU stable. And considering the rise of populism in the West, I think that's understandable.

Ultimately what's best for the EU and the UK are favourable terms for both parties and for their citizens living in the UK, and ours in the EU. But there are more political considerations at play than just the economy... and those are going to make an impact on how negotiations play out.

 

1 hour ago, Happy Blue said:

We will do lots of trade with America & Asia and some of the European country's  ..think we will be fine 

I think that's a pretty simplistic view of things and it skips the obvious steps between where we are today and where we will be. Some of our biggest trading partners will remain major EU countries, by necessity. Whether you like it or not, they're major trade partners and our economy is tied to doing business with them. Trade talks being sorted will relieve economic uncertainty, which is good for everybody.

With the likelihood of NAFTA being renegotiated and Trump being very pro-Brexit, it would probably be in Britain's best interests to try to become members of NAFTA (despite not being... in North America). As that's the largest consumer nation in the world, a former commonwealth country, and a large manufacturing country (albeit incredibly unstable because of the aftereffects of the U.S. war on drugs). Despite Trump believing that NAFTA is a bad trade deal, if it is renegotiated it's likely that Canada and Mexico will be able to secure better trade deals than were negotiated in the 90s - and that gives us a chance to walk up to the negotiation tables to land a new and beneficial trade deal. It is likely that once we're out of the EU, NAFTA will be the largest trade block.

It won't really appeal to the nationalists and isolationists, nor does it promise to bring back manufacturing to this country (which, by the way, the real time to fight back against that was in the 1980s... rather than 30 years later after, with Western world wholly embraced globalism and convinced China to play along). But it does stand to not provide stability to British exports and our economy. But this could be the economic (not political) union that the EU was when we first joined.

Engaging in trade deals with NAFTA nations and the commonwealth is key for us going forward. The big concern then is... are we a country for sale to corporate interests. Are we going to increase privitisation of healthcare and education to be more in line with America? Are we going to remove worker protections and rights we've had under the EU to be more in line with the worker rights of the US (and as someone working in the US, I'm not sure that will be a very popular switch...) - do we have to make major changes so that we can survive in the world economy (because globalism is not going away). Can the UK economy be strong enough to prevent a major brain drain?

Edited March 29, 2017 by Dr. Gonzo

[Honey Honey]

1 hour ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

They've also got the incentive to make it unappealing as fuck for anyone else to leave the EU, because like Brits, they're going to be approaching this from a self-interested point of view rather than caring about the British public. They're fighting to keep the world's largest trade block in tact. And yes, it has become a political union (rather than the economic union that we were promised when we joined) - but they're fighting to keep Europe strong in global trade and to keep the EU stable. And considering the rise of populism in the West, I think that's understandable.

Ultimately what's best for the EU and the UK are favourable terms for both parties and for their citizens living in the UK, and ours in the EU. But there are more political considerations at play than just the economy... and those are going to make an impact on how negotiations play out.

No doubt some want to dish out Soviet Union style punishment to threaten and coerce other ethnic groups of people into submitting to their centralised dominance. How many and how much power those people have I don't know. I'd be ashamed of that if I was pro-EU. I'd be ashamed if Westminster tried to punish Scotland to put the Welsh off.

It has been found in a court of law that Ireland and a few others were deliberately and excessively punished by €urozone elites, imo those behind that should be pulled up into a human rights court. If you deliberately inflict suffering on others as they have done in the periphery you've committed a crime in my view. It is one thing to suffer at the hands of negligence and mistakes, democracy exists to correct that, It's another to deliberately be made to suffer. That is only possible when you lose power, you have no way of holding the people incharge to account and through fear you submit.

You do hear politicians talking about how the deal must be worse than membership. This shows they do not even know the point of membership themselves. They don't even know the point of what they are doing. That is suspicious. Maybe they know it's not the best thing to be doing but are so fanatical they don't care. Even I can see the point of membership is the theory and idea that the merger of laws and free movements will make trade easier and open markets up. If someone was to leave they don't need to be punished, they would in theory weaken themselves by changing laws and blocking freedoms. If you have to engineer failure you are admitting you could be wrong, your ideas might be wrong and you don't want to take the risk of finding out.

This is all reminiscent of the collapse of communism.