Chester Bennington (Lead Singer from Linkin Park) Passes Away

[Spike]

1 hour ago, The Artful Dodger said:

I'm not sure it's either, the Japanese view is bonkers in my opinion.

I think we should view it as a pure and simple disaster/tragedy. It's neither cowardly or courageous, it is simply an action people take when they are often desperately ill, it's the act of a deranged mind. 

This 100%. People tend to stick towards the simple good v evil dichotomy. Sometimes something isn't a bad thing nor is it a good thing, it is just a thing.  There is no bravery,  there is no cowardice; just simply an end result of various emotional, physical, and chemical stimuli. 

For my own definition, bravery would be triumphing over adversity and becoming a stronger man, cowardice would be giving in and wallowing in sadness and pity without the strength to pull out of it, continuing in the inertia of existence. Suicide is simply termination before either result.

[Machado]

Sad. Sad for his family and 6 children.

LP were one of the bands who inspired me to start playing music and broadened my music taste in a time where I wasn't into rock or metal at all. A large parte of my early adolescence.

[Spike]

1 hour ago, Cannabis said:

Of course you would say that though, your mind is at ease. You haven't got depression. 

You can't judge a person's actions when you're not standing in their shoes. Everyone is different and what one person can brush off may cripple another. 

Standing in someone else's shoes is a weak concept. For instance I cannot understand how'd react to certain stimuli, and you the same for me. We can both understand the stimuli and perceive it but we cannot react to it in any other way aside our own intrinsic reaction. Under the same trauma one of us may have a stiff upper lip while the other falters. We can only judge other's on the basis of our own reactions. The subjective nature of individuality means the only objective nature of reality is shared perception of  external phenomena.

 

[Fairy In Boots]

2 hours ago, ...Dan said:

And if it's physical pain instead of mental? How do you feel about euthanasia? They're cowardly and selfish cunts as well?

Straw man straight out the gate. Massively different set of circumstances each with various points to consider. Euthanasia for example can benefit a family if the care takes up all the others lives, that's bravery and selfless sacrifice. It's case dependant, remember that mom who drowned recently but held her child out of the water? That's brave.

2 hours ago, Cannabis said:

Of course you would say that though, your mind is at ease. You haven't got depression. 

You can't judge a person's actions when you're not standing in their shoes. Everyone is different and what one person can brush off may cripple another. 

I couldn't really give a toss about his pain, he's offed himself because he couldn't bear to face up to whatever demons he had, and in the process he's left a widow and two 6 year old twin girls among others. As a father I can't abide that it's weak it's cowardly it's selfish, you don't do that you provide you be there for them. Suicide is escaping he's ran from his responsibilities because it's got hard. Battling through dark days to live up to that responsibility is what strength is all about, mopping around on drugs in your 40's when you've got 6 kids. It's a man child full of his own self centred attitude, I find this perverse defence of his cowardice bizarre it's no wonder as we've culturally got all sympathic more have started offing themselves. It's something stupid like 3rd or 4th highest killer to men under 50 globally now. It's really is the cheap way out for weaker men, even at your lowest you can't just abandon your young, pathetic it really is.

1 hour ago, Panflute said:

Sad.

Naturally I am against suicide but to ascribe terms as 'cowardly' to it just makes you come across as a clueless cunt.

It's born out of fear, fear of life, fear of carrying on, fear of losing face or fear of not having the strength to do what's right. Cowardice indicates a failure of the character in the face of a challenge, bugging out because you feel you can't go on is exactly that. Especially as I've said numerous times when you have dependency of your own as a responsibility, strength is facing up to it and if needs be having the bravery to ask yourself uncomfortable questions and battle those demons for the benefit of those you have a moral obligation to raise. No self respecting parent would do this. 

Anyway I'm assuming none of you lot have kids?

[Toinho]

Ignore Fairy in boots. I did after his first distasteful post.

Sad news for the music world, his family and friends and fans. Linkin Park were a band I listened to as I grew up and I still enjoy them now. R.I.P

[Mel81x+]

RIP. Always sad to see people go so early.

[Danny]

There's always ways one when suicide is brought up.

Sad news to read this morning, RIP.

[6666]

People that use someone's suicide as a way to somehow prove how strong they are really are shitty people and also quite ignorant people.

Not surprised by the posters making these comments though.

[Fairy In Boots]

4 hours ago, 6666 said:

People that use someone's suicide as a way to somehow prove how strong they are really are shitty people and also quite ignorant people.

Not surprised by the posters making these comments though.

People that virtue signal without really adding anything to the discussion are generally shitty folk to. I love the fact how you chirp in when there's a gang but run for the hills when tackled as per normal for you though. 

 

10 hours ago, Anton said:

Ignore Fairy in boots. I did after his first distasteful post.

Sad news for the music world, his family and friends and fans. Linkin Park were a band I listened to as I grew up and I still enjoy them now. R.I.P

Lol you enjoy the first two the last couple are naff. 

7 hours ago, Danny said:

There's always ways one when suicide is brought up.

Sad news to read this morning, RIP.

I'd say it's more 50/50 socially, I know my friends & social media aquiantences were 50/50 on it, I bet you could find studies that would say it's around 50/50 on it being cowardly. Here though and the Internet in general you get a few +1 so people virtue signal and it's 90/10 bravery. Quite how abandoning 6 children and causing them untold stress is brave I can't fathom. 

Regardless of the pain, illness or depression you or I feel it should always be the prevailing thought that you don't fucking quit, no matter what. It's a permanent solution to a temporary problem and can never be justified, especially when it causes pain to your offspring and in many cases dramatically raises the chances of his children suffering from similar problems now. You can all -1 vote away as much as you like, I find the act of abandoning your kids in such a selfish manner pathetic and cowardly, regardless of circumstances. 

I'd love to know what those of you without kids think in a few years time when you have them, if you have them. Perhaps other parents on here differ in my view? I certainly find it telling I'm arguing with younger lads without children on this subject. 

[The Artful Dodger]

Do you just apply the same opinion/argument to everything you talk about? If someone disagreed with you about Mars Bars you'd say they were virtue signalling, a snowflake etc.

We get it, you're a strong man and that.

[Spike]

FIB opinions are hardly controversial. Damn, thinking from the perspectice 'what if my parents killed themselves?' makes it feel like an entirely different scenario. There is no right opinion about this.

[Honey Honey]

Ironically Fairy was the first to virtue signal in this thread. 

[Danny]

1 hour ago, Fairy In Boots said:

People that virtue signal without really adding anything to the discussion are generally shitty folk to. I love the fact how you chirp in when there's a gang but run for the hills when tackled as per normal for you though. 

 

Lol you enjoy the first two the last couple are naff. 

I'd say it's more 50/50 socially, I know my friends & social media aquiantences were 50/50 on it, I bet you could find studies that would say it's around 50/50 on it being cowardly. Here though and the Internet in general you get a few +1 so people virtue signal and it's 90/10 bravery. Quite how abandoning 6 children and causing them untold stress is brave I can't fathom. 

Regardless of the pain, illness or depression you or I feel it should always be the prevailing thought that you don't fucking quit, no matter what. It's a permanent solution to a temporary problem and can never be justified, especially when it causes pain to your offspring and in many cases dramatically raises the chances of his children suffering from similar problems now. You can all -1 vote away as much as you like, I find the act of abandoning your kids in such a selfish manner pathetic and cowardly, regardless of circumstances. 

I'd love to know what those of you without kids think in a few years time when you have them, if you have them. Perhaps other parents on here differ in my view? I certainly find it telling I'm arguing with younger lads without children on this subject. 

It's called depression, it's not about soldiering on. He didn't just walk out on his kids and go for a jolly up, he was sexually abused for years as a child. The magnitude of mental health issues that can bring on to someone goes far beyond braveness or cowardice. People aren't wired the same, we don't have the same mental health issues of any, we don't have the same ability to react and deal with childhood trauma like sexual abuse. There is no logic to self harm, people don't do it because they recognise that's a choice they can take, they do not because it's the only thing they feel or know they can do, even feel they have to do it. Suicide is in the same bracket, he was seriously ill and calling him brave or cowardly is ridiculously inappropriate and shows a massive level of ignorance towards mental health. The levels of people that may agree with you and that attitude in general is exactly why suicide amongst men is so high and exactly why it's still deemed as strange or inappropriate to talk about.

[The Artful Dodger]

1 hour ago, Spike said:

FIB opinions are hardly controversial. Damn, thinking from the perspectice 'what if my parents killed themselves?' makes it feel like an entirely different scenario. There is no right opinion about this.

I agree, it's just this ultra paranoid view which sees it through a prism of fighting the emasculated, virtue signalling, liberal snowflakes. It's like a parody account now.

It's a shithole of a situation and one only really a suicided attempt surivivor might be able to explain?

[Panflute]

14 hours ago, Fairy In Boots said:

It's born out of fear, fear of life, fear of carrying on, fear of losing face or fear of not having the strength to do what's right. Cowardice indicates a failure of the character in the face of a challenge, bugging out because you feel you can't go on is exactly that. Especially as I've said numerous times when you have dependency of your own as a responsibility, strength is facing up to it and if needs be having the bravery to ask yourself uncomfortable questions and battle those demons for the benefit of those you have a moral obligation to raise. No self respecting parent would do this.

What you're saying is "if I had been under these circumstances I would've done better", which is gratuitous. Committing suicide is a mistake in any case, especially if one has children to support, but to suggest it has to do with courage or cowardice makes it out to be a rational decision, which it is not.

[Dr. Gonzo]

I'm not going to say I was a fan of his music, but it's obviously sad news. And obviously, it's most particularly sad for the 6 kids he leaves behind.

Suicide is obviously something nobody should do and is a selfish act. But at the same time, it's not something that people who are in a normal state of mind end up doing. Seeking help for mental health is still stigmatised, even though it really shouldn't be, and even acknowledging that you may have mental health issues is stigmatised... even when it shouldn't be. People who have clinical depression and say things like "everyone would be better off than dead" and can actually rationalise those thoughts aren't thinking rationally. People with schizophrenia that have a voice in their heads that shouts at them to jump off buildings (an example, that's not something that plagues all schizophrenics) have a fucking disease.

Condemning the character of a man because of the poor state of his mental health because of the shite situation his kids are in seems overly harsh. It's ultimately just a sad story.

[God is Haaland]

RIP Chester. Great musician, great band, great music.

 

[Fairy In Boots]

8 hours ago, The Artful Dodger said:

Do you just apply the same opinion/argument to everything you talk about? If someone disagreed with you about Mars Bars you'd say they were virtue signalling, a snowflake etc.

We get it, you're a strong man and that.

I don't think i've ever used the term snowflake, until now snowflake  anyway i'm not strong we all have moments of weakness, i'm capably of committing cowardly act's, Chester no doubt committed acts of bravery at points in his life. The problem with this is there's no possible point of redemption, he's made a permanent decision for a temporary problem, to me that displays weakness especially given he's walked away from responsibility.

7 hours ago, HoneyNUFC said:

Ironically Fairy was the first to virtue signal in this thread. 

I see what you did there, it's a fair cop although there's acting morally superior, which wasn't my intention but I can appreciate that's how it reads. And then there's saying shit that you think will impress others within a social group. I'm doing the former, several are doing the later. Four six is a great example, he'll only ever comment as a rule on a divisive topic after 4-5 others have attacked somebody and the direction of the group mood the conversation is becoming clear. And he won't say anything other than passive aggressive snark, get his 3-4 +1's and disappear again never gracing the topic again, Anton is another although Anton will be more direct on occasion. It's a very repetitive pattern on this forum when it comes to philosophical debates, it's why we don't get many 50/50 splits on topics. If you see who's giving who rep points it's quite humorous, there's several silent participants in the virtue signalling circle jerk of have a +1 that appear constantly. You're not stupid Harv you'll have noticed a core few set a narrative in almost a clique like fashion within the community and the rest pile in behind, depending on your stance on the topic you're either on or off side. I'm off here by all accounts but i'll make my point regardless.

6 hours ago, The Artful Dodger said:

I agree, it's just this ultra paranoid view which sees it through a prism of fighting the emasculated, virtue signalling, liberal snowflakes. It's like a parody account now.

It's a shithole of a situation and one only really a suicided attempt surivivor might be able to explain?

 cheers I did genuinely laugh.

7 hours ago, Danny said:

It's called depression, it's not about soldiering on. He didn't just walk out on his kids and go for a jolly up, he was sexually abused for years as a child. The magnitude of mental health issues that can bring on to someone goes far beyond braveness or cowardice. People aren't wired the same, we don't have the same mental health issues of any, we don't have the same ability to react and deal with childhood trauma like sexual abuse. There is no logic to self harm, people don't do it because they recognise that's a choice they can take, they do not because it's the only thing they feel or know they can do, even feel they have to do it. Suicide is in the same bracket, he was seriously ill and calling him brave or cowardly is ridiculously inappropriate and shows a massive level of ignorance towards mental health. The levels of people that may agree with you and that attitude in general is exactly why suicide amongst men is so high and exactly why it's still deemed as strange or inappropriate to talk about.

But we live in a society where freedom and stigma about the topic is at it's lowest but suicide rates are rising. I'd say the mind is a fragile thing, it's needs a stimulation, ideals, core beliefs to cling hold to, one would have though his children provided that. With that in mind, surely stigma about that act of suicide can't be a bad thing? Who's it harming, by creating a negative association with such a final act? it's actually doing more harm to play all accepting of it statistically by the look of it. It's separate from stigma about mental health after all, i'm only commenting on suicide. I'm not saying he was a coward to be troubled, i'm not saying he's a coward to fight these demons or have issues, i'm saying I find the act of giving into those issues in such a final way cowardly and in that instant he's a coward.

5 hours ago, Panflute said:

What you're saying is "if I had been under these circumstances I would've done better", which is gratuitous. Committing suicide is a mistake in any case, especially if one has children to support, but to suggest it has to do with courage or cowardice makes it out to be a rational decision, which it is not.

I'd disagree some suicides are well planned and display rational thought processes, in this case he's decided he can't go on and fetched a rope and rigged up a noose, at which point surely his own selfish reasons have overruled the instinct to survive, it's fear of facing that long road back (which takes courage) and he's quit, out of the two options suicide is by far the more cowardly for me. I can appreciate your point but surely there's a point of lucidity around this process and fear has to be the driving factor, it's basic fight or flight at it's core surely?

Also generally speaking I think it's a very broad subject, where your opinion can dramatically alter based on circumstance, i'd welcome assisted suicide if i was in a vegetative state after an accident for example.

[Spike]

Gotta say even though I don't agree with FIB, he does presents his arguments in a manner that I appreciate. Good having different opinions around, I reckon.

 

[Fairy In Boots]

1 minute ago, Spike said:

Gotta say even though I don't agree with FIB, he does presents his arguments in a manner that I appreciate. Good having different opinions around, I reckon.

 

Pretty much the purpose of a forum. If we all just sat here agreeing we'd all just fuck off after awhile as it would get boring 

[Spike]

8 hours ago, Danny said:

It's called depression, it's not about soldiering on. He didn't just walk out on his kids and go for a jolly up, he was sexually abused for years as a child. The magnitude of mental health issues that can bring on to someone goes far beyond braveness or cowardice. People aren't wired the same, we don't have the same mental health issues of any, we don't have the same ability to react and deal with childhood trauma like sexual abuse. There is no logic to self harm, people don't do it because they recognise that's a choice they can take, they do not because it's the only thing they feel or know they can do, even feel they have to do it. Suicide is in the same bracket, he was seriously ill and calling him brave or cowardly is ridiculously inappropriate and shows a massive level of ignorance towards mental health. The levels of people that may agree with you and that attitude in general is exactly why suicide amongst men is so high and exactly why it's still deemed as strange or inappropriate to talk about.

That doesn't make any sense though. FIB is openly talking about the issue and giving his perspective. If anything by you admitting that it shames FIB for his opinion, making you the person you are condemning.

For a lot of depression it is about soldiering on. There are different methods doing that. For psychological and spiritual pitfalls there is the incredibly effective CBT (Cognitive Behaviour Therapy). The conscious altering of thinking patterns is remarkably helpful for people that tend to fall into typical patterns of depression. It is about recognising, understanding, questioning, and then ultimately controlling the thought processes that cause trauma. Usually coupled with an SRRI and other mood-stabilisers, healthy diets and exercise; most depression can be battled through. The human is a yin-yang, one half body; the other mind. Both have affects one-another and should be treated as such, if one suffers the other will also. CBT for the mind and SSRIs and diet/exercise for the body. Through balance, a strong support network, and a conscious decision to help one's self the typical depressoid will triumph. You said yourself, it is an illness; there are two options for the diseased, get treatment or do not. I do not subscribe to the bravery/cowardice dichotomy and unless you recognise a higher spiritual power, depression must be treated and overcome like any other illness, as the mind is just another aspect of the body. Seperate perhaps but intertwined. I am Bipolar II, my wife is diabetic, while two different diseases; we both manage them in our ways, just like you'd manage a cold.

Also there is logic to self-harm. Physical pain causes the brain to release endorphins, as they are a natural painkiller. When the endorphins are released they act as a minor relief to the psychological trauma. Self-harm literally dulls psychological pain through physical pain. It isn't a normal action for a human to partake in, however the science behind action is completely sound.

 

[...Dan]

Human beings aren't machines. He's allowed to be weak. He obviously didn't take this decision lightly. Calling someone who couldn't bear to continue suffering a cunt is horrible.

[RandoEFC+]

I wouldn't call anyone who committed suicide cowardly or selfish because you never know what's going on in that person's head, walk a mile in a man's shoes and all that.

However, Fairy makes a fair point, whether people like it or not or whether it's politically correct or not. I don't agree with the extremes of his argument as I've said but it's true that the more we "accept" and sympathise with suicide, the more it becomes an acceptable option which isn't good for anyone.

Like I said a week or two back in the mental health thread, people have had hard lives since forever, but never have we had higher rates of diagnosed depression, anxiety and suicide. It's because the stigma and the shame keeps getting stripped away which on the face of it is a good thing as we need to move away from being judgemental, but in reality isn't helping the situation. We need to find the balance between being progressive on one hand, trying to understand mental health, accept the reasons for it and try to deal with them, but on the other hand not "normalising" it to the extent we're doing at the moment. 

[Danny]

2 hours ago, Spike said:

That doesn't make any sense though. FIB is openly talking about the issue and giving his perspective. If anything by you admitting that it shames FIB for his opinion, making you the person you are condemning.

For a lot of depression it is about soldiering on. There are different methods doing that. For psychological and spiritual pitfalls there is the incredibly effective CBT (Cognitive Behaviour Therapy). The conscious altering of thinking patterns is remarkably helpful for people that tend to fall into typical patterns of depression. It is about recognising, understanding, questioning, and then ultimately controlling the thought processes that cause trauma. Usually coupled with an SRRI and other mood-stabilisers, healthy diets and exercise; most depression can be battled through. The human is a yin-yang, one half body; the other mind. Both have affects one-another and should be treated as such, if one suffers the other will also. CBT for the mind and SSRIs and diet/exercise for the body. Through balance, a strong support network, and a conscious decision to help one's self the typical depressoid will triumph. You said yourself, it is an illness; there are two options for the diseased, get treatment or do not. I do not subscribe to the bravery/cowardice dichotomy and unless you recognise a higher spiritual power, depression must be treated and overcome like any other illness, as the mind is just another aspect of the body. Seperate perhaps but intertwined. I am Bipolar II, my wife is diabetic, while two different diseases; we both manage them in our ways, just like you'd manage a cold.

Also there is logic to self-harm. Physical pain causes the brain to release endorphins, as they are a natural painkiller. When the endorphins are released they act as a minor relief to the psychological trauma. Self-harm literally dulls psychological pain through physical pain. It isn't a normal action for a human to partake in, however the science behind action is completely sound.

 

Someone is less likely to speak out  if they're being called a coward due to suicidal thoughts or actually carrying the act out. How me challenging that thought process makes me the person I'm condemning I don't know.

The term soldiering on is the stuff upper lip mentality, there is a difference between asking someone to seek help via CBT and medicines, and simply asking someone to "soldier on".

The process of self harm is logical, much like suicide is. But it's not a logical way to think. When I had cancer I was depressed and had suicidal thoughts, my only escape from a disease that was trying to kill me was a disease that made me want to kill myself or lesser, hurt myself. That isn't a logical way to think, it maybe a logical way for your mind and body to react to something, but it's not a logical way to deal with the root cause, I.e. cancer or in this case child abuse.

[6666]

1 hour ago, Danny said:

Someone is less likely to speak out  if they're being called a coward due to suicidal thoughts or actually carrying the act out. How me challenging that thought process makes me the person I'm condemning I don't know.

People unfortunately make false equivalencies regarding criticisms over what people say. They view creating a negative environment for discussion the same way they view creating a positive environment for discussion. If you have an issue with one and not the other then you're obviously being a hypocrite...