England National Team Discussion

[Tar-Mairon]

I think we have to look at Southgate's reign thus far with some balance.

Had someone told England fans in the dark days of 2016 (I was in Warsaw when we lost to Iceland, watching it with a man mountain of an Icelandic guy!) that the next two tournaments, we would end up in the semi final and the final, a penalty shoot-out away from winning the tournament, we'd be thinking "what brilliant manager did that". Let's not forget that he did do it. He deserves enormous credit for the spirit and atmosphere he created in the squad, treating the players like adults (not Sven Play Time or Capello Boot Camp )and snuffing out the toxic and divisive club rivalries that turned the England camp into cliques who just couldn't wait to get back to the PL.

The accusation that "it was easy and he had luck" is just revisionist history designed to attack him because people don't like what he's doing now. We got there because he managed it well. 

However, it does appear now that he has peaked and hit the wall. I'd love to be proven wrong at the World Cup but his stubbornness in refusing to let players express themselves, his tactical negativity, playing players out of position and breaking his own word by playing players who are out of form and not getting in their club team is really costing us. It may be time to soon say thank you to him for everything he did but that it is now time to let someone else have a crack at it.

 

[Azeem]

Iran will be the surprise package in England's group. Well not exactly surprise they equalled Portugal on points last time and their players play in Qatar a lot. 

[Bluebird Hewitt]

1 hour ago, Dan said:

I think it's quite plausible England don't win the group. It's a kind one on paper but you're licking your lips if you're one of the other three and seeing that's your pot one side. I can see the Iran game being the most dire of 0-0 draws.

Unless Southgate tried to stop topping the group like at the last World Cup, England will top it. Between us and America for the second spot I feel.

[Dan+]

7 minutes ago, Bluebird Hewitt said:

Unless Southgate tried to stop topping the group like at the last World Cup, England will top it. Between us and America for the second spot I feel.

I can see a scenario where something like 5 points tops the group. A load of draws and not many goals. Iran have near enough home advantage which helps them a little. I wouldn't be making too many bets on this group.

[DeadLinesman]

2 hours ago, Dan said:

I highly doubt for example Plymouth Argyle fans truly, hand on heart believe that they are the greatest team the world has ever seen.

Genuinely pissed myself. Couldn’t have put it any better. I mean, the famous Wigan Rugby team didn’t travel to Rome to see the Pope and if they did, I highly doubt he told them to fuck off.

[Dan+]

8 minutes ago, DeadLinesman said:

Genuinely pissed myself. Couldn’t have put it any better. I mean, the famous Wigan Rugby team didn’t travel to Rome to see the Pope and if they did, I highly doubt he told them to fuck off.

Honestly of all the things you can pick at England for it's such a bad choice. It's a harmless song. The original to something teams up and down the country use as well. Just no idea why that of all things winds anybody up.

[Danny]

10 hours ago, Devil-Dick Willie said:

I copped a lot of "we're semi finalists/finalists so we don't care" from the English lot on here, and honestly, I don't blame them at the time. Winning is exciting, especially when you're not used to it! 

However, the chooks were always gonna come back to roost. You can ignore a needing a dive to beat Denmark without their best player in extra time and can ignore going to OT with Colombia and ignore the going 0-4 against teams who can actually play football  (Italy, Belgium twice and Croatia) at the time because you're all caught up in the 'it's coming home' whirlwind. I bet beating Germany felt great too, so good that you can ignore the fact Germany couldn't beat Mexico, South Korea and whoever else at the time so stale had things gotten under the worlds most rubbish coach.

But the party is over, as @Beelzebub said, it's gonna be a quarter final match against Argentina or France. Good fucking luck Burnley FC international. You're gonna fucking need it. 

Mate this is a load of shit. A big pile of shit. A semi-final and a final is a good result, regardless of how we got there. England are not a world class team, we do not have a group of world class players, we are not one of the best national sides in the world, they are good results. Celebrating them isn't ignoring the blatantly obvious that Southgate is a limited manager, it's giving him a chance to create more good times.

Anyone that looks back on the final and semi-final as missed opportunities are vastly overestimating the quality of our team and where English football has come from.

Imagine not celebrating two good competition results because we might be shit at a comp in 2022.

[Dan+]

For me he's done about par, which gets overestimated because he's the first England manager I can remember who wasn't under par. But he's going the way of under par now and you also feel we had two extraordinarily good opportunities, particularly in the Euros for silverware and we didn't deliver it.

He's been neither great or a disaster. Just average for me. You can't judge his time entirely against predecessors because there are so many mitigating factors. It should be always relative to the squad you have against what you're up against. For me only Spain in the Nations League and Germany in the Euros are that impressive as results, and even the latter I think needs caveating with the fact Germany were going through a bad phase themselves and we were at home.

His time is definitely up though. They won't change manager before the World Cup, but they should.

[Devil-Dick Willie]

5 hours ago, Danny said:

Mate this is a load of shit. A big pile of shit. A semi-final and a final is a good result, regardless of how we got there. England are not a world class team, we do not have a group of world class players, we are not one of the best national sides in the world, they are good results. Celebrating them isn't ignoring the blatantly obvious that Southgate is a limited manager, it's giving him a chance to create more good times.

Anyone that looks back on the final and semi-final as missed opportunities are vastly overestimating the quality of our team and where English football has come from.

Imagine not celebrating two good competition results because we might be shit at a comp in 2022.

1. Look me in the eye and say you don't have a top 8 squad on paper. Then tell me the 8 teams who do. 

2. I never said you shouldn't be happy. I said that you should have given those results and how you got them a big think AFTER the fact. my post is about the fact that this hasn't crept up on me at all. Because you didn't set the world on fire to get the results you got, and being in a group of Germany and Italy you were always gonna struggle. 

[Devil-Dick Willie]

11 hours ago, DeadLinesman said:

Not even an England ‘fan’ so to speak, but this has become the biggest fallacy in world football along with Pogba being world class. The “it’s coming home” chants have 99.9% been self depreciating tongue in cheek since around 2002. It’s probably sung more by England fans since it seems to boil everybody’s piss for absolutely no reason. It’s literally an unofficial anthem and that’s it.

You can say that all you fucking like, and I do believe that plays a big part in it. Obviously when you get that early 1-0 win over Tsunisia and people are chanting it's coming home it's very tongue in cheek. But it gets fucking serious and seriously obnoxious once you past the group stage. 

[RandoEFC+]

Southgate looks good because he's made England a team who actually beat what should be inferior opposition whereas many of us have watched half a lifetime's worth of bigger name England managers who haven't managed to even achieve that. His actual record in major tournaments looks better than it probably should on average because of generous draws, no doubt about it. It does feel like this England team are due a bad tournament though. It really doesn't feel like they're on a trajectory of semi final in World Cup, final of Euros, champions in the next tournament.

Regardless of that, results are everything and the history books will always show he reached a World Cup semi final and backed it up with a Euro final. Lucky or not, his "achievements" as England manager can arguably only be bettered by Alf Ramsey.

[Devil-Dick Willie]

48 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

Southgate looks good because he's made England a team who actually beat what should be inferior opposition whereas many of us have watched half a lifetime's worth of bigger name England managers who haven't managed to even achieve that. His actual record in major tournaments looks better than it probably should on average because of generous draws, no doubt about it. It does feel like this England team are due a bad tournament though. It really doesn't feel like they're on a trajectory of semi final in World Cup, final of Euros, champions in the next tournament.

Regardless of that, results are everything and the history books will always show he reached a World Cup semi final and backed it up with a Euro final. Lucky or not, his "achievements" as England manager can arguably only be bettered by Alf Ramsey.

It's like a girl who's only dated plonkers, starts dating an emotionally abusive cunt and reasons "well at least he doesn't beat me up like the others did"

[Dr. Gonzo]

On 23/09/2022 at 17:37, Gunnersaurus said:

Hes not really a clown is he though. Hes done pretty well. Making some strange decisions lately though. Not that optimistic about the world cup. That will soon go after 12 pints in the first game though

I think he’s been pretty lucky setting up to be a defensive side that relies on set pieces, but he’s been figured out and it shows.

[Spike]

On 23/09/2022 at 20:07, Devil-Dick Willie said:

Meh. I've been consistent on my thoughts here since the last world cup. England have one of the top 8 or so best teams in the world on paper. Southgate, during both tournaments organized them into an Athletico Madrid style 'hard to beat low block with a proven goal scorer up front and we're good at set pieces' style team. Then they only really beat teams you'd expect them to beat. 

The England fans were in raptures because it was getting results but rarely stopped to look at why and how. You got dumped out of both tournaments the minute you played a better side. This world cup will be no different, it'll just likely happen sooner. Can't always play Sweden, Ukraine, Columbia and Denmark in quarter finals and semi finals. Sooner or later it'll be France or Spain.  

That's Atletico, ATLETICO. I'll kill you, I'll kill all of you! Especially those posting in this thread.

 

[Spike]

4 hours ago, Devil-Dick Willie said:

You can say that all you fucking like, and I do believe that plays a big part in it. Obviously when you get that early 1-0 win over Tsunisia and people are chanting it's coming home it's very tongue in cheek. But it gets fucking serious and seriously obnoxious once you past the group stage. 

'Tongue in cheek' is the biggest cope I've seen. It's the ultimate 'I was just joking' when it backfires, 'Haha I told you so' when it works. I'm sure for some jaded people it is a joke, but most people take this shit very serisoulsy

Edited September 25, 2022 by Spike

[Azeem]

I'm waiting for the WC to create a poll on "It's coming home" so no one is allowed to steal my thread.

[Danny]

10 hours ago, Devil-Dick Willie said:

1. Look me in the eye and say you don't have a top 8 squad on paper. Then tell me the 8 teams who do. 

2. I never said you shouldn't be happy. I said that you should have given those results and how you got them a big think AFTER the fact. my post is about the fact that this hasn't crept up on me at all. Because you didn't set the world on fire to get the results you got, and being in a group of Germany and Italy you were always gonna struggle. 

What’s happening now isn’t a shock though, it’s a departure from previous form at the World Cup and the Euros which is naturally frustrating but it’s not a shock because we have never seen a progression in Southgate’s England and it’s been quite commonly known that he’s not trying to win competitions in a way a side like Spain or Italy did.

[Devil-Dick Willie]

1 hour ago, Danny said:

What’s happening now isn’t a shock though, it’s a departure from previous form at the World Cup and the Euros which is naturally frustrating but it’s not a shock because we have never seen a progression in Southgate’s England and it’s been quite commonly known that he’s not trying to win competitions in a way a side like Spain or Italy did.

Okay, so people wanted Gareths girth in their gob 2 years and 4 years ago and they want him gone but no one is surprised? Fuck me. Not a chance. 

[Danny]

20 minutes ago, Devil-Dick Willie said:

Okay, so people wanted Gareths girth in their gob 2 years and 4 years ago and they want him gone but no one is surprised? Fuck me. Not a chance. 

Us getting beaten by Belgium twice was a big talking point of the World Cup. We were all aware Germany were not the Germany of previous years.

Southgate took us from being a side that couldn’t get past a group stage or past Iceland to a side that beat those teams and we all enjoyed that a lot because supporting England is mostly a shit experience.

You are also forgetting that in the build up to the Euros, Southgate was heavily criticised and was up until the Scotland game. The limitations he imposed on the team were obvious, but he’d then managed to get us to a final which is a nice experience so we decided not to get angry at him. A very normal reaction.

You only see Southgate’s tenure and the fans reaction in black and white, but the truth is that at the World Cup when he took over we knew we were shit, we were just happy to be winning football matches because the tournament before we got knocked out by Iceland. At the Euros vs Scotland most fans were annoyed with the style of play, the annoyance wasn’t born out of a surprise as if we had believed we were amazing, it was just a natural shift from the positivity of the previous tournament as we’d all watched Southgate’s England struggle to be anything other than direct and void of creativity in the time between those two comps.

What we are now seeing is a further build up of that. There is no “gotcha” moment that you crave, even if we’re average or shit were not going to be dwelling on that when after decades of failure we have managed to reach a semi and a final. No one expects England to be world beaters, so we’ve enjoyed the ride whilst it lasted and all we can hope is that Southgate can pull a rabbit out of that hat, however that looks increasingly unlikely as if we make it out of the group stage we will have to play much tougher KO games than in previous tournaments.

[Devil-Dick Willie]

31 minutes ago, Danny said:

Us getting beaten by Belgium twice was a big talking point of the World Cup. We were all aware Germany were not the Germany of previous years.

Southgate took us from being a side that couldn’t get past a group stage or past Iceland to a side that beat those teams and we all enjoyed that a lot because supporting England is mostly a shit experience.

You are also forgetting that in the build up to the Euros, Southgate was heavily criticised and was up until the Scotland game. The limitations he imposed on the team were obvious, but he’d then managed to get us to a final which is a nice experience so we decided not to get angry at him. A very normal reaction.

You only see Southgate’s tenure and the fans reaction in black and white, but the truth is that at the World Cup when he took over we knew we were shit, we were just happy to be winning football matches because the tournament before we got knocked out by Iceland. At the Euros vs Scotland most fans were annoyed with the style of play, the annoyance wasn’t born out of a surprise as if we had believed we were amazing, it was just a natural shift from the positivity of the previous tournament as we’d all watched Southgate’s England struggle to be anything other than direct and void of creativity in the time between those two comps.

What we are now seeing is a further build up of that. There is no “gotcha” moment that you crave, even if we’re average or shit were not going to be dwelling on that when after decades of failure we have managed to reach a semi and a final. No one expects England to be world beaters, so we’ve enjoyed the ride whilst it lasted and all we can hope is that Southgate can pull a rabbit out of that hat, however that looks increasingly unlikely as if we make it out of the group stage we will have to play much tougher KO games than in previous tournaments.

That's bullshit. The random draw machine got you out of the group stage. You think Southgates England get past the Uruguay and Italy you faced? He got Tunisia and Panama instead. There's your hero. 

[Danny]

38 minutes ago, Devil-Dick Willie said:

That's bullshit. The random draw machine got you out of the group stage. You think Southgates England get past the Uruguay and Italy you faced? He got Tunisia and Panama instead. There's your hero. 

So we’re just disputing factual statements now 

[Reluctant Striker]

Germany, Italy & Brazil are the 3 sides who seem to win regularly. Who very much believe they will be doing so. And even they capitulate spectacularly at times.

It's easy to be unaware of, or forget, that Spain & France for many years repeatedly failed despite growing expectations. They were not always in the Argentina division. And that Holland or The Netherlands, were & still remain, the nation described as the best footballing nation never to win a World Cup.

When England win, it stirs memories & thoughts of 1966, of 1-5 in Germany, of 4-1 vs Holland at Wembley. Of 1-0, finally, vs Argentina in 2002. All when it mattered. The Dutch 1 giving Scotland every chance.

When England lose, it's all the defeats. And more, it'll never work than anything coming home.

I don't think England will win this next World Cup. I think this batch of players & manager have peaked. And have done beyond all reasonable expectations. But the nation very much could win, at some stage, with their Zidane, or Xavi, Iniesta, Villa, etc generation.

Any side that ever wins a World Cup, it is all about a great many things being in alignment.

[Devil-Dick Willie]

9 minutes ago, Danny said:

So we’re just disputing factual statements now 

Your argument that 'southgate is responsible for us passing the group stage' isn't factual cunt. You happened to pass the group stage. 

[Danny]

26 minutes ago, Devil-Dick Willie said:

Your argument that 'southgate is responsible for us passing the group stage' isn't factual cunt. You happened to pass the group stage. 

You're having a stroke son

[Cicero]

I'm still adamant in saying England doesn't have the defence or midfield to really play a progressive system. 

Southgate is a limited manager, but when your best technical midfielder is 19 and your best all around CB has yet to really play at the highest level, you can't blame him with always opting for a more compact system.