The U.S. and Mass Shootings

[Bluebird Hewitt]

19 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Well the NRA is primarily a lobbying group for gun manufacturers. They don't give a shit about whether or not people die, they still want people to buy guns. They're not so much batshit crazy as they are just severely lacking in morality.

Rubbish. You clearly don't understand that a good guy with a gun will always trump a bad guy with a gun. 

[Cicero]

The Dayton shooter is a baffling one. Pro socialism, pro choice, pro gun control, AntiTrump, etc. Even liked a post about gun control hours before the massacre. He even killed his sister in the crowd. 

[Stan]

Obviously not a mass shooting but WTAF.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-49253691

Quote

Texas police have apologised after an image of two white officers on horseback leading a handcuffed black man by a rope caused an outcry online.

Galveston Police Chief Vernon Hale said on Monday the technique was acceptable in some scenarios, but that "officers showed poor judgment in this instance".

He said there was no "malicious intent" and has changed department policy to "prevent the use of this technique".

Many people on social media said the photo evoked images of the slavery era.

According to a news release from the Galveston Police Department, the two mounted officers, named only as P Brosch and A Smith, arrested Donald Neely for criminal trespass.

The officers were taking Mr Neely to a police staging area. Police clarified that he was not tied with the rope, but "was handcuffed and a line was clipped to the handcuffs".

The department added: "We understand the negative perception of this action and believe it is most appropriate to cease the use of this technique."

[Dr. Gonzo]

8 minutes ago, Cicero said:

The Dayton shooter is a baffling one. Pro socialism, pro choice, pro gun control, AntiTrump, etc. Even liked a post about gun control hours before the massacre. He even killed his sister in the crowd. 

There's a theory that his sister was the primary target of the shooting. No idea if that's true or not. I think unlike the El Paso shooter, who clearly laid out his reasoning in the manifesto - this other guy seems like he may have just been an unstable nutjob. His ex-girlfriend said he had a history of mental issues and never received treatment/didn't think treatment was necessary for it.

I think they'll investigate into him, but my guess is it'll be like the Las Vegas shooter where no real motive is ever really established. Probably because he can't be questioned, because he was shot as he was trying to enter that bar. And I don't blame the police for shooting to kill in this instance, he had over 200 rounds left after firing 41 shots and he probably would have slaughtered everyone in that bar. I actually commend the cops for responding so quickly, it's insane how much damage he caused in just 30 seconds... but it's pretty remarkable the police came in 30 seconds after reports of gunfire and ended the situation... it's obviously a tragedy, because people were murdered, but it could have been so much worse.

I've seen some people say "background checks will only do anything if that person actively seeks treatment for their mental illness" and that's true. That's probably why automatic and semi-automatic weapons shouldn't be in the hands of ordinary people, if Americans must keep their guns make them keep the ones that make mass shootings more difficult.

[Fairy In Boots]

On 05/08/2019 at 20:23, The Artful Dodger said:

It's true. America is the country of self over anyone else, you are guaranteed the 'pursuit of happiness'. So if some sad fuck isn't getting laid or is a bit upset he has to take it out on everyone else, be it gays, women or ethnic minorities. The country is founded on slavery and racism, and its never even attempted to deal with that legacy. It is a toxic mix which is only going to get worse. The gun laws won't change and neither will the culture. 

Wasn’t the Dayton shooter a lefty? 

2 hours ago, Stan said:

Obviously not a mass shooting but WTAF.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-49253691

In fairness it’s not as if they could put him in the back of a squad car if they’re on horseback. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

50 minutes ago, Fairy In Boots said:

In fairness it’s not as if they could put him in the back of a squad car if they’re on horseback. 

Shoulda slung him over the back of the horse Red Dead Redemption bounty style 

To an extent I feel for those cops - there was probably no easy solution for them here... but that image just looks so fucked up... especially when you consider Texas was part of the confederacy, has had problems with racism in the past, and there was just a white nationalist terror event in the state. I think for PR purposes, although I'm sure it's not great for police resources as you've only got a finite number of cops out on the street, it probably would be wiser to have these officers detain him while they wait for a squad car than parade him as though he's a slave going up for sale.

Might be a waste of time, but I think when you've got race relations as bad as they are in America right now - there's certain imagery and sensitivity towards that imagery that should be considered. It probably will be in the future, but it doesn't come off great for that police department having that picture being up on the internet for the world to see.

[Dr. Gonzo]

In other news, the founder of 8chan - where the Texas shooter posted his manifesto, where the New Zealand shooter was a regular poster, and where the guy from here in San Diego shot up a synagogue (three recent white nationalist mass shootings) - wishes he could "uncreate" his website (which he no longer has control over) https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/founder-8chan-wishes-he-could-uncreate-forum-popular-white-supremacists-n1039496 - it's funny though, years ago I said that white nationalists were using the internet in the same way groups like ISIS were to radicalise people... and I feel like very few people cared. Now the media finally fucking cares, but only after hundreds of innocent people had to die.

And the other recent California shooting up in Gilroy is now being treated as another domestic terror incident. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/gilroy-garlic-festival-shooting-fbi-opens-domestic-terrorist-investigation-california-today-2019-08-06/

So it's nice to see that more people are beginning to realise that domestic white nationalists should be treated the same as Islamic extremists - as the fucking terrorists they are. But it does beg the question of whether anything will seriously be done about it, when we have news like this coming from 2017: https://foreignpolicy.com/2017/02/15/trumps-focus-on-radical-islam-downplays-growing-risk-from-right-wing-extremism-experts-fear/ - where in that time we've seen a sharp spike in far-right-white terror and... someone get me the stats on the death toll in the US from Muslim terrorists since 2016, but I bet it's not as high.

Personally, I think this is a bigger problem than the other glaringly obvious problem with American gun violence. That it's simply far too easy to get a gun in America - particularly these automatic and semi-automatics that make these mass shootings easy for these fuckers to carry out. So something that could be done to address both issues is... simply banning automatic and semi-automatic weapons. Unfortunately, with the Supreme Court's current composition though... it's unlikely that a law like that would ever survive judicial scrutiny.

As a result, I doubt we see these shootings end any time soon. There is political momentum behind enacting gun control in the United States, but it dies out very quickly until the next big shooting (or in this case, the next two big shootings). But the current holders of political power aren't likely to do a fucking thing about it.

[Pig on the Wing]

1 hour ago, Fairy In Boots said:

Wasn’t the Dayton shooter a lefty? 

Good lord. Any chance to boil down complex terrorism/insanity to 'left' or 'right' and you just can't help yourself. Maybe if we note that he liked music with direct lineage from Black Sabbath, we could make irrelevant comments about your music taste and your propensity to kill innocent people. See how fucking stupid it is?

This nonsense transcends binary political branding because each instance has so many factors in the build up to the atrocity.

The one undeniable common denominator? Easy access to assault weapons. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Stan]

8 hours ago, Fairy In Boots said:

 

In fairness it’s not as if they could put him in the back of a squad car if they’re on horseback. 

See below. Also, in the article it says they could have waited for a squad car to come. They don't necessarily have to go with the person. 

7 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

 

To an extent I feel for those cops - there was probably no easy solution for them here... but that image just looks so fucked up... especially when you consider Texas was part of the confederacy, has had problems with racism in the past, and there was just a white nationalist terror event in the state. I think for PR purposes, although I'm sure it's not great for police resources as you've only got a finite number of cops out on the street, it probably would be wiser to have these officers detain him while they wait for a squad car than parade him as though he's a slave going up for sale.

Might be a waste of time, but I think when you've got race relations as bad as they are in America right now - there's certain imagery and sensitivity towards that imagery that should be considered. It probably will be in the future, but it doesn't come off great for that police department having that picture being up on the internet for the world to see.

The sheer lack of awareness and common sense in how it might look to others is what strikes me here. The allusion to the slavery era is bewildering and disappointing. It's 2019 and they still think this shit is acceptable. I'm even more surprised the police force think it was acceptable until the day this happened where they now get bad publicity, so that's when they decide to change their ways. Madness. 

[The Artful Dodger]

A lefty in the USA is like David Cameron here tbf. Left or right, the culture of America and its recourse to violence if I, ME, MINE doesn't get their way is what's at the root of it. I genuinely don't think weapon control will have much of an effect now, it's simply too late to change how that country is.

[Azeem]

 

[Azeem]

https://www.history.com/news/the-brutal-history-of-anti-latino-discrimination-in-america?fbclid=IwAR1O3UUzGigcn6Ghjd1pWmyeB6LAlIthu0gngr-aW4vM7b54gWscNXGPz3g

Anti-Latino discrimination in America 

[6666]

Motorcycles backfiring scared the shit out of people in Times Square.

 

[CaaC (John)+]

1 hour ago, 6666 said:

Motorcycles backfiring scared the shit out of people in Times Square.

Jesus Christ, what a way to live nowadays in America, in fact, all over mother Earth when a noise like that makes people dive for cover.

[RandoEFC+]

What can you say that hasn't been said before? 

Is the constitution thing the main reason they can't do anything about guns in America? And whatever the reason, I think the bottom line is to ask the people of America a simple question. What is more important to you - the constitution (or other things holding back gun reforms in the US) or doing something about the thousands of people, parents, children, brothers, sisters, husbands, wives, boyfriends and girlfriends, that are getting shot dead in these regular incidents? 

I know "it's more complicated than that" and *politics*. I really don't care, so don't bother replying to this with an essay about the constitution or any of the other reasons it hasn't been done yet, or why they have to go about it the right way, or why it's a delicate issue, or what the poor farmers and lumberjacks in the mountains are going to do when they need to shoot a grizzly bear. People are dying for no reason every day, nothing matters more than that.

[Dr. Gonzo]

5 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

What can you say that hasn't been said before? 

Is the constitution thing the main reason they can't do anything about guns in America? And whatever the reason, I think the bottom line is to ask the people of America a simple question. What is more important to you - the constitution (or other things holding back gun reforms in the US) or doing something about the thousands of people, parents, children, brothers, sisters, husbands, wives, boyfriends and girlfriends, that are getting shot dead in these regular incidents? 

I know "it's more complicated than that" and *politics*. I really don't care, so don't bother replying to this with an essay about the constitution or any of the other reasons it hasn't been done yet, or why they have to go about it the right way, or why it's a delicate issue, or what the poor farmers and lumberjacks in the mountains are going to do when they need to shoot a grizzly bear. People are dying for no reason every day, nothing matters more than that.

This one's not a long essay. And full disclosure, I fully agree with you - so it's not much debate. It's just sort of explaining things:

First bit in bold: the constitution is SORT OF the reason they can't do anything about guns in America - but the modern day interpretation of the 2nd Amendment is one that requires pretty massive mental gymnastics compared to the actual text of the amendment. But part of the amendment mentions the "militias" (who in the modern interpretation are just... people, no actual militias) that are "well regulated." That last bit, "well regulated" indicates that the government can in fact regulate guns. BUT... the mental gymnastics of their Supreme Court has kind of fucked up that amendment.

As for the second bit in bold (which is just the word politics) - yep, that's why it's so complicated. The NRA has been a very powerful lobbying group in the US - they assign grades to pretty much any national politician and governor based on how favourable they are to the NRA. And really, the NRA doesn't really work for "ordinary" gun owners (don't ask me what an "ordinary" gun owner is... I think they're all weirdos with a weapon fetish) - they work for gun manufacturers. Not just US gun manufacturers, but also European and Israeli ones as well.

The constitution allowing guns I don't think is inherently part of the problem. Guns are legal in Canada, you don't see this happening every other day in Canada. I think this is just cowardice from politicians that don't want to go against a powerful lobbying group, even if it means hundreds of people will die a year.

So ultimately at the end of the day, I think America's gun issue is a corruption issue.

Fuck, sorry mate. I intended that to only be a couple of sentences and it's longer than I expected 

[Azeem]

https://bylinetimes.com/2019/08/05/white-supremacist-extremism-can-never-be-curbed-in-america-without-changing-its-gun-laws/

White Supremacist Extremism Can Never Be Curbed in America without Changing its Gun Laws

interesting article completely negates what i said earlier about gun control and white nationalist

[Azeem]

A Hotel manager prevented a mass shooting in California planned by the hotel's cook

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2019/08/21/us/california-arrest-mass-shooting-plan/index.html

[Harry]

On 08/08/2019 at 09:10, Dr. Gonzo said:

So ultimately at the end of the day, I think America's gun issue is a corruption issue.

 

I can't remember if I said this on here but I do believe current levels of corruption and influence of money on politics would have prevented previous common sense evolutionary regulations from coming to pass, such as tobacco health warnings. 

We'd still be debating the "science" of whether the flame sticks really do cause health problems or not and it would be entirely a political issue with the tobacco industry flexing even bigger financial muscles than the NRA.

[6666]

And again.

 

[Guest]

@Dr. Gonzo so what is the main reason for people wanting guns so bad in America? From what I gather it is that they are worried their government will turn on them and they need to be able to protect themselves? Although by using their logic you could argue they should be allowed to have fighter jets and tanks

[Harry]

What I find a bit surprising is noone has targeted the NRA in their attacks.

Similar to trump assassinations you'd imagine could have been attempted based on the level of anger and rage and  amount of press coverage highlighting the futility of being able to achieve progress via peaceful means - it would not have surprised me at all if some disillusioned youth went down that path rather than random strangers at a mall.

[Azeem]

Well to be honest i would also have an irrational fear of a civil disorder or government crackdown if my country is invaded by aliens and what not in every other Hollywood movie 

[Dr. Gonzo]

4 hours ago, Gunnersauraus said:

@Dr. Gonzo so what is the main reason for people wanting guns so bad in America? From what I gather it is that they are worried their government will turn on them and they need to be able to protect themselves? Although by using their logic you could argue they should be allowed to have fighter jets and tanks

Fuck if I know mate

[DeadLinesman]

Your handgun or AR15 is unlikely to defend you from a drone that could drop a small bomb within a centimetre accuracy on your head. This is how fucking stupid some people are when it comes to the interpretation of the second amendment.