Arsenal Discussion

[Panna King]

I would be a of breath of fresh air when Wenger does leave, the stadium is very tired because of him and its only 10 years old. 

[SirBalon]

Tony Adams: "Wenger couldn't coach himself out of a paper bag"

 

LOOKING back, I believe there were a couple of major reasons why Arsene didn’t want me back at Arsenal.

First, the club had put up a statue of me outside the Emirates and — given the career I’d had — it might have been difficult for Arsene to bring me in at that time.

He was coming under pressure for not winning a major trophy and to have me around as a successful old captain might have highlighted the underachievement.

 

Patrick Vieira once suggested Arsene does not like big characters and personalities around, especially ones from Arsenal’s history.

Perhaps Arsene thought I might be too challenging for him.

He seemed to like an assistant such as Pat Rice or Steve Bould, both great club men who were not going to ruffle feathers.

Arsene is so dominant that he was probably not going to like it if I said, “We’re conceding bad goals, I’m going to take the back four today and organise them.”

Because Arsene is essentially not a coach — and that is the second reason why I believe he didn’t want me. Back in the day I said in an interview coaching wasn’t Arsene’s strong point.

Actually in the original draft, I said he couldn’t coach his way out of a paper bag. And though I modified that in the final article, it didn’t go down well.

It all left me feeling that I would never get a chance in any capacity while Arsene was there.

Much as I respected him for his long and successful tenure, my occasional willingness to pass comment on him and the team probably counted against me.

Arsene was absolutely the best man for Arsenal when he had his English defence and more exotic overseas attacking talent.

He was also the perfect manager to keep Arsenal competitive with the big-money clubs during the transition from Highbury to the Emirates. But I do believe, after the departures of Ashley Cole and Sol Campbell in 2006, a lot was lost and never recaptured.

The replacement defenders have simply not been up to the same standard as what went before, because they have not been taught the art of defending properly.

I have seen players like Gael Clichy, Hector Bellerin and Kieran Gibbs coming to Arsenal and not progressing as they might have — and Per Mertesacker exposed because of a lack of protection.

I first tried to go back in early 2012, when I heard Pat Rice was retiring as Arsene’s assistant.

Pat confirmed he would definitely be going in May — but when I spoke to Arsene about it he said “Oh no. He won’t retire. He said that last year.”

He said he would be convincing Pat to stay, as he had done 12 months before. “Fair enough,” I said and shook his hand.

Then came Pat’s leaving do, which Arsene did not attend. I texted him again and asked if I could come to see him.

“I went to Pat’s leaving do and I understand there is a job going,” I said. “Oh no,” said Arsene. “I am moving Steve Bould and Neil ­Banfield up from the academy.” I ­texted Steve to congratulate him.

He texted back to say he knew nothing about it. Two days later, Arsenal announced that Steve and Neil were stepping up. The next day, I texted Arsene to ask if I could come to see him again about the vacancy in the academy.

This was three times in just over a month.

Euro 2012 in Poland and Ukraine began and I’d heard nothing. Arsene texted that I should talk to Ivan Gazidis and Liam Brady, as they were choosing the candidates.

I rang Liam — who said it was the manager’s decision — and emailed Ivan, who said it was Arsene and Liam deciding.

Then Liam rang, to tell me I was overqualified, they wanted somebody younger who they could train up. I was not going to let this go by now, having been messed about so much.

So I met Arsene yet again and this time he told me, “I see big things for you. You are a great coach and you will be the next manager of Arsenal.”

But I said, “Arsene, Arsene, Arsene,” proud I did not raise my voice or lose my temper.

“I have too much respect for you to fall out. It would have been better if you had just told me you didn’t want me.”

“No, it is not like that,” he replied. “You have got the wrong end of it.”

“Arsene, let’s forget it,” I said. “Have a wonderful season.”

Then there was the time when ex-chairman Peter Hill-Wood questioned where all the people who gave time and expertise — and ran football clubs for free, out of love — had gone.

I wrote to him. “I am in my 40s, I don’t need paying. I will advise about playing matters and the future, perhaps be Arsene’s long-term successor.”

The board needed someone like me, I reckoned. I never got a reply. So that was four attempts to come back — one to get on to the board, one to become Arsene’s assistant, one to do the reserves, then even the offer of a freebie.

But I still wasn’t done yet. My next one was partly tongue-in-cheek, to make a point.

Arsenal were advertising for a coach to take the Under-14s. I thought “f*** it. I’m going for it.”

I got a call from the HR department asking if I was ­serious, pointing out the modest salary of £15,000 a year and that it involved five nights a week in London and a Sunday game.

I said that, on reflection, it wasn’t for me, though had I lived nearer I would certainly have thought about it. It was the Arsenal, after all. It was the way Arsene dealt with it all, rather than not getting a job, that ­saddened and annoyed me.

He never liked confrontation. I recall a time when Ian Wright was getting in late for training most days. Arsene just made training later but the boys were fuming. We, as players, then told Wrighty to get his act together.

But in Arsene’s later years, I couldn’t envisage any other player having the authority to challenge him like that, which worries me.

In 2016, the European Under-17 Championships were held in Azerbaijan. I went and noticed Arsenal weren’t represented. I asked the chief scout if he’d like analyses.

He emailed me back adding: ‘There’s a vacancy for an Under-18 coach in the Arsenal academy.”

My relationship with Arsene had been warm for six months after my heart scare. He texted saying: “I admire your strength. Respect and love.” It prompted a bit of a text love-in. I texted him about the under-18 job and he just replied: “Good luck Tony.”

The salary would be £45,000 gross. I would give it a month.

Another club, this one a step up in the Chinese Super League, were interested. They were Chongqing Lifan, lower to mid-table.

Had the Arsenal money been better, I might have had second thoughts. There were people who thought I was wrong. Perhaps the big job would come up, they said.

It was not going to happen, though. It was made clear that the Under-18s was not preparation for bigger things, even if I was on the inside when Arsene left.

Of course I wanted — still want — to come back as Arsenal boss, but I don’t think I was seen as management material by the club.

 

Tony Adams: Arsene Wenger couldn't coach his way out of a paper ...

Tony Adams claims Arsene Wenger 'couldn't coach his way out of a ...

Tony Adams: Arsene Wenger 'couldn't coach his way out of a paper bag'

'Arsene Wenger couldn't coach his way out a paper bag' - Tony Adams ...

[6666]

Sounds like someone's bitter about not getting a job... With how Arsenal were doing before Wenger, Tony's words really have no validity. He's said nothing but positive things about Wenger in the past as well, even responded to the idiotic "we want our Arsenal back" chants by saying "You mean the Arsenal that Wenger gave you?"

This is poor from Tony, doubt he even buys into what he said. Don't know what he was expecting, his experiences with football coaching have all been quite shit. Seems to have taken it badly.

As for the "can't coach his way out of a paper bag" comment, classic twisting by the low end press. He mentioned how he was going to originally say that but then didn't and The Sun made it their headline.  Everyone knows The Sun are scum but these idiots keep going to them.

Edited May 19, 2017 by 6666

[SirBalon]

That's one way to sell a book to be honest...  He's not the first and won't be the last to bring out comments like those.  He does sound bitter about not being given a position within the Arsenal training setup, but then again there's been a number of ex-Arsenal players that feel somewhat similar and that does leave questions as to what the issues are there...  Maybe they're not good enough and Wenger detected this or maybe it's something else.

I'm not one to enjoy reading or listening to ex club legends saying these types of things and there is also the other side of the matter that it seems some Arsenal fans hold Wenger in higher esteem than the players that also done so much for the club.  A bad word can't be said about one particular individual for the want to have his status intact.

[Danny]

How much do Arsenal fans believe the club actually has? A lot made of not being able to spend money, but never really any proof and substance in the claims the board are holding it back.

Quite interesting looking into your honours history, prior to Wenger you won 2 league titles in 9 years and then prior to that was an 18 year wait for a title, then you've won about 6 FA Cups with him and in about 19/20 years before him you'd won 3.

[6666]

I did do a comparison of 20 years with Wenger and 20 years before Wenger and posted it on TFF a few months ago. There's an obvious improvement in consistency and in my opinion people can still recognise that fact while still wanting to go up another level and thinking a different manager can deliver that. Unfortunately though, people want to go all in one way or another.

[HK85]

Usmanov bids $1.3bn to take over Kroenke's shares but been rejected. 

[6666]

The club's too much of a cash cow for Kroenke, he was never going to agree to a sale. The rest of the board members don't want Usmanov either, Kroenke lets them run the club the way they want whereas Usmanov would want a more hands on role which would threaten the amount of power they have.

[RandoEFC+]

https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11670/10884692/arsenal-shareholder-alisher-usmanov-makes-bid-for-full-control-of-club

Quote

Alisher Usmanov has made a £1bn bid to buy out the majority shareholder at Arsenal, according to Sky sources.

It is understood Stan Kroenke has yet to formally respond to the offer, which was initially reported by the Financial Times, but it is expected he will reject it.

Usmanov currently owns a stake of just over 30 per cent in the club and has a personal fortune of around £11.2bn.

 

Kroenke, who also owns the NFL's Los Angeles Rams, has been Arsenal's majority shareholder since 2011.

The American increased his shareholding - through his company Kroenke Sports Enterprise - to 67.05 per cent of the club with a purchase of 23 ordinary shares in May 2016.

 

Usmanov recently stated his belief that Arsene Wenger should begin the process of identifying the club's next manager, describing the long-serving manager as Arsenal's "main symbol" and "main asset."

"Some continuity is needed," Usmanov said in comments reported by Bloomberg last month. "This includes the need to prepare a successor for Wenger, but in a very respectful way.

"I can suggest that Wenger himself can prepare a successor."

This could be big news.

[Spike]

Should have table £1,000,000,001

[Honey Honey]

Love it. Not the bid but Usmanov saying Wenger should pick the next manager because they need continuity. I seem to recall an old red nosed cunt picking a cod's heed to replace him at one of the Manchester clubs for continuity and stability purposes.

[Danny]

19 minutes ago, HoneyNUFC said:

Love it. Not the bid but Usmanov saying Wenger should pick the next manager because they need continuity. I seem to recall an old red nosed cunt picking a cod's heed to replace him at one of the Manchester clubs for continuity and stability purposes.

The only reasons he got that job were because he was from Glasgow and spent a million years at Everton.

[Guest]

Considering adams record in spain is played 7 lost 7 he can hardly criticise wenger. 

[Guest]

13 hours ago, Danny said:

How much do Arsenal fans believe the club actually has? A lot made of not being able to spend money, but never really any proof and substance in the claims the board are holding it back.

Quite interesting looking into your honours history, prior to Wenger you won 2 league titles in 9 years and then prior to that was an 18 year wait for a title, then you've won about 6 FA Cups with him and in about 19/20 years before him you'd won 3.

Well i doubht we can spend nearly 200 millilon which man city amd utd are. 

[SirBalon]

Well Kroenke who hasn't put a penny into the club apart from the moment he bought it has made almost £300m.  That in itself doesn't mean anything on the part where he's made money out of essentially what is a business (Arsenal Holdings PLC), but it does in that he doesn't give a crap about the club.  He's been to 6 games this season while Usmanov has only missed 3 homes games...  Again that doesn't mean anything because I'm sceptical about all of these sorts of characters.  But seeing that this is the sort of club we are now and that whoever comes in in the future in a similar fashion, then all I can hope for as a fan is someone that's going to best for the football side of things which is the reason why I support the football club.  It makes no difference how much money we make or how much we're worth because in the grand scheme of things that doesn't translate into our real competitiveness season upon season.

[Danny]

6 hours ago, SirBalon said:

Well Kroenke who hasn't put a penny into the club apart from the moment he bought it has made almost £300m.  That in itself doesn't mean anything on the part where he's made money out of essentially what is a business (Arsenal Holdings PLC), but it does in that he doesn't give a crap about the club.  He's been to 6 games this season while Usmanov has only missed 3 homes games...  Again that doesn't mean anything because I'm sceptical about all of these sorts of characters.  But seeing that this is the sort of club we are now and that whoever comes in in the future in a similar fashion, then all I can hope for as a fan is someone that's going to best for the football side of things which is the reason why I support the football club.  It makes no difference how much money we make or how much we're worth because in the grand scheme of things that doesn't translate into our real competitiveness season upon season.

You're referring to what will happen if he sells his shares in the club which would cost around £700m and make him a profit of £300m...but how could you be more competitive without him? What money is at the club that you're currently not seeing?

 

[SirBalon]

1 hour ago, Danny said:

You're referring to what will happen if he sells his shares in the club which would cost around £700m and make him a profit of £300m...but how could you be more competitive without him? What money is at the club that you're currently not seeing?

 

I have no idea how much money we could possibly have to spend because you get all sorts coming from different places like in the past when the chairman has quoted amounts.  What I do know is that we are one of the richest football clubs in the world and that there are clubs below us spending more money.  Put it this way, our wage bill is one of the highest in the Premier League and our manager is on a hefty amount of money.  If football is a business these days and if Arsenal is a business...  I'm in business and at big companies a manager, leader, person responsible will demand top dollar do do his job.

I'm not about to cry poverty and we do spend anyway.  We spend stupidly!  I'm not complaining about our spending and more on a recruitment choices.  We don't have a section of the board which is dedicated to the technical side because we have a manager in charge of it all and because Arsenal is a business, in business you, the one in charge are responsible for the businesses results as an outcome of your choices.

So...  He seems to be doing perfectly fine for the PLC because they've been happy up till now before the fans started questioning stupidly because the ones they should be head hunting isn't Wenger.  It's Kroenke a and those up there...  If those people change, Wenger will go.

[Cicero]

On 5/12/2017 at 6:36 PM, Dan said:

No he's just showing himself up to be arrogant as per usual. It's a total myth that us or Chelsea are bad to watch and a myth that Arsenal are that great to watch nowadays either. We defended when we had to? What a crime against football that is.

Post of the year this. Surprised I only saw it now. We've played some of the best football this season that's on par with our 2010 team

Edited May 20, 2017 by Cicero

[Dan+]

4 hours ago, Cicero said:

Post of the year this. Surprised I only saw it now. We've played some of the best football this season that's on par with our 2010 team

We can't win with some. No matter what we do. We beat teams in open, high-scoring games? We're told to wait until teams start playing defensively against us. We beat them too? No style, not attacking enough etc...

It's footballing snobbery and nothing more. We've all got our own ideas on how we like to see the game played. There is no particular right one, and I would strongly dispute that it is "damaging" for the game if teams like us and Chelsea win things. What would be more damaging for the sport is if every team in the world adhered to one style of play. How boring would that be?

[SirBalon]

On 5/20/2017 at 8:18 AM, Danny said:

You're referring to what will happen if he sells his shares in the club which would cost around £700m and make him a profit of £300m...

No mate!  I'm referring to the part where he's withdrawn dividends to the effect (to date) of almost £300m from Arsenal Holdings PLC without ever having invested a single penny in the club (yep, your typical controlling shareholder, nothing wrong there on the grand scheme of things).  What you're talking about is a possible end of story profit which hasn't come into effect but would be very well received by those that know quite a bit about what's been happening at the club for a while now.

I'll post something later on all of this...

Edited May 21, 2017 by SirBalon

[Chaaay AFC]

11 hours ago, Dan said:

We can't win with some. No matter what we do. We beat teams in open, high-scoring games? We're told to wait until teams start playing defensively against us. We beat them too? No style, not attacking enough etc...

It's footballing snobbery and nothing more. We've all got our own ideas on how we like to see the game played. There is no particular right one, and I would strongly dispute that it is "damaging" for the game if teams like us and Chelsea win things. What would be more damaging for the sport is if every team in the world adhered to one style of play. How boring would that be?

Totally agree with you and @Cicero both you and Chelsea played very good football in your title winning seasons, especially compared to our drab shite.

Honestly the Arsenal fans who still claim we play good football must have a screw loose like Wenger because we havent played good football since Cesc left. Honestly out football is as dull as it can get, we can't defend and out attack is just relied upon individual talent.

[SirBalon]

On 5/20/2017 at 8:18 AM, Danny said:

You're referring to what will happen if he sells his shares in the club which would cost around £700m and make him a profit of £300m...but how could you be more competitive without him? What money is at the club that you're currently not seeing?

 

Here is a letter Alisher Usmanov wrote to the Arsenal board a while back.

To: The Board of Directors of Arsenal Holdings Plc: Peter Hill-Wood, Ivan Gazidis, Ken Friar, Sir Chips Keswick, Lord Harris of Peckham, Stanley Kroenke

With copy to: David Miles, Mark Gonnella

5th July 2012

Re: Open Letter to the Board of Directors of Arsenal Holdings Plc (the "Club")

Dear Sirs,

In recent weeks a couple of separate actions have occurred, which have caused us, as a near 30% shareholder in the Club, to have serious concerns about the approach of the Board and the management team:

• Firstly, there were some very deliberate and public comments by Ivan Gazidis which were intended to leave the Club's supporters with an impression that Red & White is in some bitter stand-off with the Board over its desire for a Board seat and that our involvement on the Club's Board might cause conflict and "destabilize" the Club; and

• Secondly, OJSC MegaFon (Russia) received a cold call letter from Mr Gazidis requesting a meeting to discuss a possible international partnership deal including shirt sponsorship. MegaFon is one of the three largest mobile phone companies in Russia and also happens to be over 50% owned by Alisher Usmanov. Is this really the level of professionalism that is being applied to securing long-term commercial contracts?

Let us not forget that we have invested circa £200 million of cash in the equity of the Club. We are part of this Club and naturally want the best for it, but our investment is less important than the fact that we are loyal supporters and will never do anything that would destabilize or "create conflict" at the Club.

We do however believe that you, the Board, and the executive management team should focus your energies on the most efficient operation of the Club and desist from seeking to create a false enemy in Red & White. In our view it is clear that you are trying to distract attention from the more fundamental issues facing the Club, and which indeed many of the supporters discuss through social media sites and other forums on a regular basis. These are the financial model, the lack of investment and the Club's future strategic direction.

However, before addressing these points, it is important to deal with the issues surrounding a Board seat for Red & White once and for all. As you all know well, Mr Usmanov has never sought for himself a Board seat at the Club. Indeed Mr Usmanov does not hold any board seat in any of the companies where he is an investor. Since the purchase of our first share in the Club, we have not only steadfastly adhered to a policy of non-interference in the running of the Club, but have consistently supported the management and given no reason whatsoever to be accused of subversion or sabotage. The history of our voting in support of the Board at the annual general meetings is proof of this.

Indeed, in any conversation about conflict, it is clear from a look at the history of the Club in recent years that the Board has achieved conflict without the help of any outside parties, notably the acrimonious departures of David Dein, Keith Edelman, Lady Nina Bracewell-Smith and Richard Carr, who then reappeared on the Football Club Board. You also instituted a lock-down agreement originally to prevent Mr Kroenke from gaining control and then, later, to exclude our involvement even though there were no grounds or need to do so.

The real conflict seems to be between the supporters' expectations and your vision for the Club and at the heart of this is the policy of so-called self-financing. The self-financing model was created to suit the major shareholders at the time, all of whom subsequently sold their shares.

The previous decision by the Board to fund the building of the Emirates Stadium with long-term debt was, we believe, certainly not about self-financing. If it had been, it would have been funded through a mixture of debt and non-dividend equity. Instead it allowed, in our view, the major shareholders of the time, who happened to all be Board directors, to load the Club with a liability, to benefit from increased future revenue streams and consequent increase in the value of their holdings, whilst avoiding dilution of their equity. The Board of the time then appeared to pursue a policy of increasing ticket prices and squeezing the fans to cover the short term cost increases which allowed them to bridge until all of these shareholders and Board directors sold 100% of their holdings and cashed out at vast profits.

This policy does not seem to have changed. We have sought and been refused any meetings with Mr Kroenke despite the fact that we own almost 30% of the Club or to put another way almost 1 in every 3 seats in the stadium. It is clear that our stated policy for the major shareholders, namely Mr Kroenke and ourselves, to inject non-dividend paying equity into the Club by way of a rights issue to reduce the debt and invest in the future is of no interest to the Board. Mr Kroenke was sold a vision by the Board at the time that the Club could be successful without further investment, so he is pursuing a similar policy which is to run the Club without any investment and to avoid any dilution of his equity, a good part of which was funded by a loan from Deutsche Bank AG to KSE, UK, Inc. at the time of the mandatory offer. The status of that loan and whether it is still outstanding has not been clarified by Mr Kroenke.

As a consequence of this policy, which is dressed up as prudent financial planning, it is down to our manager, and not the shareholders, to have to deal with the Club's tight finances, carry the burden of repaying the stadium debt by selling his best players and having to continue to find cheaper replacements. All of that, naturally, comes at the expense of performance on the pitch.

This policy is leading to the loss of our best players, often to our main competitors, and even causes the players themselves to question their future at the Club and the Club's ambitions. The situation with our captain and outstanding performer from last season Robin van Persie sums this up. Yet again we are faced with losing our true marquee player at the Club because we cannot assure him of the future direction and give confidence that we can win trophies. Where are the safeguards to ensure that this doesn't happen again and again in the future? As a top Club we should, at the very least, match if not beat the offers that other clubs make to try and lure our very best players away, and also provide a more compelling vision of the future. You can try and put a good face on a bad game for as long as you want, pontificating about the merits of this model, but it will not hide the obvious fact that it just does not allow our great manager to fully realize his managerial talent and deliver success for the fans who are paying the highest prices in the land. It appears that a place in the Champions League will be the pinnacle of our ambition again next season. Unfortunately, in the future we may see this ambition lowered further. It doesn't help to turn a blind eye to the reality of the situation and keep thinking of ourselves as being in the same league as Real Madrid, Chelsea, Manchester City and Barcelona. To have a fighting chance of success, which means winning trophies, we need to match them in every aspect, including, if not first and foremost, financial.

So what is Red & White's vision for the Club? It is simple. A debt free Club, with a big enough war chest to buy top talent players who can hit the ground running and who can complement the Club's long tradition of developing young players and homegrown talent. Together they can help the Club win the most prestigious trophies - because it is the trophies which are the crowning achievement for everybody at the Club. The trophies are also key to the commercial success of the Club - they increase the value of the players, the value of the brand, attract the best sponsors and maximize the value of our commercial contracts which should in turn mean that the Club does not have to squeeze any more income from hard pressed fans. We also believe in the transparency that a stock market listing brings so are committed to the Club remaining listed on the stock exchange and to greater fan involvement both through share ownership and also Board representation for the fans.

Today we wish the majority shareholder Mr Kroenke every success in running the Club, even though we have deep reservations about the viability of the policies being pursued by his management team and sanctioned by the Board.

Finally and reflecting our long-term commitment to the Club, we will continue to purchase more shares in the Club from anyone who wants to sell them to us. Also in order to formalize our long-term involvement with the Club and put an end to any speculation over our position, we, as the co-owners of Red &White, will proudly retain our holding in the Club as a long-term investment for ourselves and our family members to benefit for generations to come. We want the absolute best for the Club and will do what is necessary to ensure the success of the Club that we all love.

Yours sincerely,

Alisher Usmanov

Farhad Moshiri

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/18725835

[Hugh Jass]

Yes I agree with earlier comments that Arsenal don't play particularly beautiful football any more. For me it is too slow and ponderous. 

Now the fast-paced pass and move football than they played when they had Henry, Bergkamp, Pires, Ljungberg, Vieira etc, is definitely the most entertaining and exciting football that I'v seen from any team in my lifetime. 

 

[Chaaay AFC]

With the takeover bid topic, I would love to see it happen. I really just want to see the back of Kroenke now, as proven with the rest of his sports clubs, they are all massive under-performers. Usmanov isn't perfect, but he does seem to have a genuine interest in the club and he actually has said a lot of things I agree with.

[Asura]

7 hours ago, Chaaay AFC said:

Honestly the Arsenal fans who still claim we play good football must have a screw loose like Wenger because we havent played good football since Cesc left. Honestly out football is as dull as it can get, we can't defend and out attack is just relied upon individual talent.

This. Take away Sanchez in the recent years then there is really no bite in the team