Chelsea Discussion

[LFCMadLad]

5 hours ago, carefreeluke said:

Adding to what Cicero said.

There has been a lot of fans saying this about Kanté after the West Ham game.

For me when I watch Kanté for France as a defensive midfielder, he does a good job in that position but for me it sort of limits his athleticism which is one of his best assets. His athleticism is useful for the counter but more importantly in the pressing stage. When we're talking about him playing the traditional role of a defensive midfielder, imagine a scenario where the team is relatively deeper and he's tasked with the job of nicking the ball from the opposition in front of the defence and picking up runs etc. I actually think his positional play and concentration when performing this role at times can come into question, not to say he's bad at it, he still does it well but it's not his best asset. In fact, I can actually think of many occasions where he's been at fault in this area. Whilst this area was more Makélélé's bread and butter and it's how they differ as players. Kanté's best work for me comes when he's given more licence to press and most of his best tackles and interceptions come normally as a by-product of his superior level of athleticism.

In my opinion there's no way you can have Kanté moved to Jorginho's position. We simply need someone with Jorginho's ability on the ball there for Sarri's style to function at full speed and power. Jorginho seemed to get a lot of stick for his performance against West Ham but for me he was easily our best player. For me in football there's a lot more than what meets the eye when it comes to a player's performance. Jorginho's passing firstly created some of our best chances that day but it was more the mentality at which he played at. He was always playing at the right speed and always looking to do the right things on the ball, personally a lot of the time I can forgive a player's performance if I see them conducting themselves with the right mindset and that's what he did for me on Sunday. His passing and overall game at times was not vintage Jorginho in terms of accuracy etc but it's impossible to expect perfection every game. The most important thing was his mentality and anyway as well a lot of his passing created some of our best chances that day and it also allowed the other players to find space in between the lines. If the other players were playing at Jorginho's tempo maybe we would have had a better result.

There are two reasons why I think Chelsea fans are demanding this change with Kanté. The first is Kanté’s limitations in attack in a more advanced role. I personally don’t think he’s that bad in an attacking sense, he’s isn’t great but I personally think come the end of the season he’ll have a fair share of goals to his name. There’ll perhaps be certain times during a game where we may need to switch him with someone who has a more attacking threat but for the most part I think he’s OK. But more importantly, I think some of Kante’s burden here needs to lay more on Kovacic’s shoulders, the most attacking player of the midfield three. I think that some of the Chelsea fans’ concerns in this area with regards to Kanté need to be directed a little more towards Kovacic.

One of the reservations I had about Kovacic was his numbers, he needs a bit more output, in terms of purely goals, key passes etc. Kovacic has demonstrated that he’s very good technically on the ball, has some nice combination and link up play with some of the players around him and is doing a lot of good work for others in the team. However, I would like to see him be more decisive in the attacking third. At Real Madrid he played in every midfield role possible but now he’s arguably playing in his best position, if this isn’t, it’s the one position Kanté is taking up at the moment. At Real Madrid there was always this doubt of where was his best position? And for me when I previously used to watch him, I always thought who is Kovavic as a player? Yes, we know some of the things he’s good at but what’s he true footballing identity? For me we’ve still yet to truly discover that and for that reason it’s going to be very interesting to see how he develops this season.

The second reason why Chelsea fans are wanting Kanté to change back to a defensive midfield role is that we’re finding ourselves at times a lot more open compared to last season. Firstly, this is in part down to a well-documented change in playing style and a natural consequence of that is that we’re going to find ourselves at times having some more problems defensively. Nevertheless, more notably these defensive problems are normally down to something else going wrong elsewhere.

I like to view formations and playing styles like a fully functional working machine. What we’re seeing as Chelsea supporters under Sarri in certain moments is the team being quite open, stretched and the team with a lack of compactness lacking adequate protection for its back four. We find ourselves in this position at times when the opposition counters or in other scenarios when our pressing and positional play isn’t up to scratch. For me the majority of it is not down to not playing Kanté in his natural position, it’s down to something going wrong earlier on in the functioning of the machine. Why do Pep’s teams at their best never get countered that much? It’s because they stop it at source. Pep’s essentials are counter pressing and positional play and this is what stops his teams for the most part looking too vulnerable defensively. This is exactly Sarri’s aims as well. And we’re finding these problems because something has gone wrong in our pressing, concentration and positional play earlier on. People are just seeing our back four coming under pressure and the team looking open. But what happened in the moments before this? How did we get ourselves in these situations? It doesn’t just happen.

Pep wants complete control of a football match and Sarri is very much the same. For me with Kanté playing in this different position we’re just using his strengths defensively in a different area of the pitch. His athleticism and positioning are vital to the counter pressing and scenarios above which allow us to regain possession quickly.

Finally, you’ve also got to ask yourself, does the role of a traditional defensive midfielder (which a lot of the time Kanté gets solely associated with) exist in a Sarri system? The answer is not really.

And the award for the longest post goes to .....

[Cicero]

Pretty spot on read from Luke and just provides more clarification to my point. 

If the TLDR gang want a summary, 

- Kante isn't a DM. He plays there for France, but his ability is limited. He's better further up the pitch which differentiates him with Makelele. 

- Jorginho is vital to how we play. His ability to lead transition and set the tempo is what makes the team tick. We want to control the game. Jorginho plays at a quick tempo and even on his off days, he still plays with bravery and takes the most risks passing it forward, even if it fails. Because of this, it is hard to be frustrated with how he plays when things aren't working because he always looks to make things happen. 

-The reason why we scored the goals we have and the chances we created, was because of our possession game, in which Jorginho is heavily responsible for. 

- Moving Kante to a DM won't work under Sarri's system, and I would hope it's pretty clear to see as to why. We play with a holding midfielder. 

-We look vulnerable defensively because we are still working on our pressing game. Pep's City showed similar frailties his first season, yet they have now perfected it. 

Edited September 25, 2018 by Cicero

[The Liquidator]

Currently I don’t have the time to post here, however my amusement at reading the postings of the last few days I cant allow them to pass without short comment.

Jorginho I have been flagging up since the pre season and for the last few weeks others are seeing him for what he is. I believe he is a modern day Ray Wilkins for Manchester United, short passing sideways n backwards no more than 10 yards at a time, with the ball passed straight back to him for him to fucking do exactly the same again. Many saying, including the manager we were too slow with the ball. That’s BECAUSE FUCKING JORGINHO takes 6 passes to do what it takes a decent player only one.

As I said, no time to post here so Goalie Luiz Kovacic Morata ect escape having their constant faults listed, but I cant go without flagging up a major reason why we never for one minute looked like we were going to get all three points Sunday.

The Manager.

I was warned he is a one trick pony and true to form this weekend he didn’t do anything to help the team find a way to break down a well drilled West Ham. It seems when he hasn’t got one or other of Pedro n Willian to replace each other, he has very little ideas of whats needed. The bloke who can no longer run who was sitting on the bench was the ideal game breaker for that game, but didn’t get the shout. Hazard was switched wings when he should have been pushed alongside Giroud much earlier in the game. Kante is being wasted out of position which weakens us as a attacking threat as well as us losing what he is the best at in the world. To his credit, he has agreed the defence must improve. Being Italian, that should be fucking easy for him.

Slowly the penny is dropping with everyone, over a month behind me.

[Dr. Gonzo]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-45641867

[IgnisExcubitor]

On 24/09/2018 at 23:32, Spike said:

And I hate general hypocrites that moan about the 'right thing' and turn around and spout bigoted shite about an entire population of people.  You're a cunt that assumes he is right because of where you are from, completely disconnected from the real world and happily blame all your problems on others when in fact it was your countrymen that sold out your footballing culture. You're a pathetic specimen. Wake up and smell the shit on ypur knees, Nigel.

I'm sure the boys get real rowdy when you finish bashing paki and gay heads in, aye.  Pathetic rating your quality in nights out. Grow up

Weird bloke, isn't he? The biggest xenophobe on the forum (once even wished death for an entire nationality of people) while pretending to be woke on political issues.

[Cicero]

Under Sarri: 
Hazard 6 goals in 7 games. 

Under Conte: 
Hazard 6 goals in 14 games. 

Under Mourinho: 
Hazard 6 goals in 21 games 

Early days, but very promising.

[carefreeluke]

@Dan  @Stan

What do you think of this Kanté position stuff?

[Stan]

2 minutes ago, carefreeluke said:

@Dan  @Stan

What do you think of this Kanté position stuff?

horrible.

why play a player so good in a defensive/central midfield position who's speciality is winning the ball back, hassling and breaking up attacks, on the right wing pretty much? It doesn't make sense and it's frustrating. It's a way to shoe-horn in Jorginho no doubt but I don't think you should sacrifice a player of Kante's quality to do that.

[The Artful Dodger]

On 26/09/2018 at 10:33, IgnisExcubitor said:

Weird bloke, isn't he? The biggest xenophobe on the forum (once even wished death for an entire nationality of people) while pretending to be woke on political issues.

The right-wing, Hindu Nationalist hates me too, oh what shall I do.

May go over the top at times, but gotta fight the plastics.

Edited September 27, 2018 by The Artful Dodger

[RandoEFC+]

Love the absolute constant rattlement caused by @The Artful Dodger when he isn't even a WUM. Much better read than the rest of the internet.

[Cicero]

39 minutes ago, Stan said:

horrible.

why play a player so good in a defensive/central midfield position who's speciality is winning the ball back, hassling and breaking up attacks, on the right wing pretty much? It doesn't make sense and it's frustrating. It's a way to shoe-horn in Jorginho no doubt but I don't think you should sacrifice a player of Kante's quality to do that.

We have more of the ball now, so it will obviously mean Kante will have less time to do what he does best, win it back. 

Still does a job for us in our pressing game. It's games like Newcastle or West Ham where he isn't needed and a player like Cesc or Barkley would be better suited. 

 

[Dan+]

1 hour ago, carefreeluke said:

@Dan  @Stan

What do you think of this Kanté position stuff?

We played him on the left wing when we first got him and while he wasn't bad, he wasn't anything like the player we had when we put him in his actual position.

I maintain he's actually kind of wasted in a midfield three as well. He is that ridiculously good at what he does that he can let you play a midfield two and not get totally over-run.

[IgnisExcubitor]

12 hours ago, The Artful Dodger said:

The right-wing, Hindu Nationalist hates me too, oh what shall I do.

May go over the top at times, but gotta fight the plastics.

Keep on fighting, Nigel! 

[Spike]

Derby getting drawn seems like match fixing really. Of course it'd be Lampard's team.

[carefreeluke]

13 hours ago, Spike said:

Derby getting drawn seems like match fixing really. Of course it'd be Lampard's team.

Yeah, I naturally thought the same as well.

[True Blue]

Missed our game on Saturday, watched it later on and i share a mixed emotion. Think overall a draw was probably fair, our defensive problems continue but we also are dangerous going forward which Sarri obviously wants. He doesn't mind if we concede and win, and in this game a draw was good for us. We can now again rotate for Videoton on Thursday ahead of the league games. Klopp and Sarri obviously delighted with the game, which was very entertaining even for the neutrals. Good to see Sarri isn't a shit talker, and he rarely speaks of signings and always praises the squad he has. Perfect music for Roman's ears. 

[Stan]

11 minutes ago, True Blue said:

Missed our game on Saturday, watched it later on and i share a mixed emotion. Think overall a draw was probably fair, our defensive problems continue but we also are dangerous going forward which Sarri obviously wants. He doesn't mind if we concede and win, and in this game a draw was good for us. We can now again rotate for Videoton on Thursday ahead of the league games. Klopp and Sarri obviously delighted with the game, which was very entertaining even for the neutrals. Good to see Sarri isn't a shit talker, and he rarely speaks of signings and always praises the squad he has. Perfect music for Roman's ears. 

How come you missed the game mate? 

[True Blue]

Just now, Stan said:

How come you missed the game mate? 

[Cicero]

Think Saturday reminded us all that in spite Luiz's flaws, he is always a big game player. 

Feel like the defensive issues at the weekend were down to the holes the midfield left, and the misplaced passes our wingbacks made. Luiz and Ruidger did well to cope against that. 

[True Blue]

Yeah he was praised for his performance, while Christensen played his worst game in a Chelsea shirt in the league cup. Think he is now basically dead to Sarii haha.

[Cicero]

4 minutes ago, True Blue said:

Yeah he was praised for his performance, while Christensen played his worst game in a Chelsea shirt in the league cup. Think he is now basically dead to Sarii haha.

Think he was playing Ill

[The Liquidator]

I was at the game and have watched full recordings of the game twice. This is a cut n paste of my posting elsewhere as I don’t have the time to re-do for this board.

I agree with a few of the postings before me passing comment on Saturdays game. I never felt once during the game we would get more than a point out of the game and come the end we were VERY lucky to get a point. While Liverpool are much further along than us, of the two sides we have by far have the better upside to come. I don’t think Liverpool can get any better than they are with their current squad, where’s there is so much improvement to come for Chelsea. For that said, Liverpool are better than us and should have won the game.

While the first half seemed to be a half of two carefree sides going for it, sitting watching the second half I felt it was no different than watching a Conte side as we allowed (There is a case to say they attacked at their free will) them to come onto us and we counter attacked. So much so we saw our manager use Moses for Willian to tighten the right hand side, then the mistake of bringing on Barkley, when a better choice would have been Zappacosta for Kovacic. Barkley is an attacking player and I lost count of the amount of times he became flustered on the ball in our half when pressed by the super fit Liverpool team. Also, in the second half both our full backs were not allowed to leave our CH’s. It was a ridged back four with Kante running around like a maniac infront of them doing the other two midfielders defending. I think the poor little feller was so tired come the equalizer, he was unable to close down Sturridge (who had given fair warning to our goalkeeper weds by hitting the bar from exactly the same part of the pitch) Granted we had enough chances to score a few in that second half, it was still less than Liverpool manufactured during the full game.

7OaksCFC is quite right, the Liverpool defence did seem a bit punchy, but they wont come up against Hazard every week and its to be seen how they fair over the season. There is a bit of the we will score more than you attitude about Klopps teams and its also to be seen if their players can keep up the outstanding workrate they produce each week. There is no doubt in my mind they are the second best team at this stage of the season. Our manager said after the game we are closer to them than he thought, hmmm ok. I think with a few tweaks to his starting line up we could continue to play in the system he is famed for, but be so much stronger. TheRealFatFrank points out how well Cesc played up at Anfield with more penetrating passes forward finding their targets than Jorginho has all season. While I agree he did play well, I don’t think he is mobile enough to play in a game against Liverpool. Maybe from the bench, but not to start. I believe Liverpools mobile players would have passed him as thou he wasn’t there (Afterall, they went past Jorginho & Kovacic as though there wernt there for most of the game). You are not alone ChelseaTotty in wondering why in the second half we didn’t hit our target man while he was still on the pitch? I think the manager became frustrated with him not being over mobile which allowed the two CH’s marking him to be first to what ball he did see. Morata was as poor for me when he came on, although he did hold the ball up a little better than he has previously this season.

Many are talking up David Luiz performance in the game. For me he got away with murder over the 90 mins. Where was he when Rudiger ran behind our keeper to clear the ball off the line? Is it me or does he look far slower since we reverted to a 4 man backline? Obviously his distribution when on is wonderful, but I just feel if either Cahill or Christensen were more comfortable on their left side, they would both be better options as defenders. Alonso was terrible as an out n out defender. The way Salah shook him off before rounding the keeper was painful. There are plenty of other negative things I could list from the game, but I would rather finish off with some positives.

Eden continues to be all we have dreamt him to be. He truly is playing at a even higher level than the seasons he was the main reason we won the league. I am desperately trying hard to not think he will sign a new contract to avoid disappointment, but there is a part of me that thinks he seems so happy, he might just stick around. Rudiger is proving to be our best signing for sometime. I am more n more impressed with his need to win everything. Id like him to be a little more sensible when up tight behind a player as he tends to give away silly free kicks, but there is no doubt whoever got him to the club needs a heavy slap on the back. I don’t agree with Robsmisfiringknob on Dave. I think Dave is still playing at a high level without Moses buffering everything that comes down that flank. Like MHEnd777 FrankieBoy &  NewYorkBlue23 I am warming to the manager. There is tons I don’t agree with in how he picks his teams and I will continue to highlight these thoughts, but the guy is very calm infront of the cameras and tends to take the sting out of any probing questions. I along with many others watch all his interviews hoping to catch the question he answers without touching his Nose - Head. Could become a alcoholics dream drinking game!

[The Liquidator]

Strange game last night. We found it very difficult to break down a very enthusiastic strong bodied side who looked every bit the kinda side tippy tap teams struggle to break down. I dont think I have been as disappointed in a substitution one of our many managers have called as I was when Hazard was introduced last night. For me it showed weakness in our current manager. If you are going to go into a game resting what you believe to be our key players, have a little more faith in them to get the result you desire. As much as Morata's reaction to his goal was moving, his latest run around his left foot in the first half yet again illuminates his uncomfortableness in front of goal. As long as he continues to favour his right foot, we will be shaking our heads as often as we have since he arrived, no matter how many tears he sheds.

[SirBalon]

Maurizio Sarri comment on Álvaro Morata after yesterday's game;

"If Morata wants to or feels like crying after he scores a goal, I hope he does a lot of crying this season"

[Bluewolf]

It was an interesting if a little over the top emotion to finally getting on the score sheet for Morata last night, I appreciate the frustration he must be feeling and all strikers go through rough patches but any decent player just keeps working hard and digs deep, To be reacting like that gives me the impression he is of a fragile nature mentally, probably one that needs constant reassurance and hugs etc..  God knows what he must have been like when his missus had their child, he was probably blubbering more than the baby.. 

You need strong willed battling types as strikers, those that will impose themselves on the game and in front of goal, have that hunger to get at goal, It always seems as though with Morata he can be easily bruised and bullied out of some games when on the ball and don't think we will ever have that with him... I don't recall ever seeing the likes of Costa, Drogba etc ever getting tears in their eyes or ever getting bullied off the ball for that matter, They were a constant menace to defences.. 

Still struggling to understand why we let Bat go out on loan... bad decision that one...