(QF) Ukraine 0-4 England - Saturday 3rd July, 2021

[Reluctant Striker]

Yeah, the idea of this tournament just doesn't seem right for me.

Apparently it will be Germany 2024.

Nothing wrong at all with just picking 1 host nation.

Ok that 1 nation has home advantage.

Then, if different, there's a defending champion.

Perhaps a favourite to dethrone the existing champs.

But this tournament? Way too many home sides while others are on a European tour.

[Azeem]

No one should try this multi host idea again until teleportation is a thing 

[Lucas]

Let's be honest, it's never going to happen again is it.

It was always touted as a 'one off' to mark 60 years of the Championships by that daft corrupt idiot Platini, and he's never likely to be trusted again.

When it's back to what it knows best, Germany will be a great Euro's for what it's worth.

[Michael]

5 hours ago, Devil said:

I think Bale and Ramsey upgrade that team enough to be just as competitive as Ukraine and Sweden. 

Take the two top class attacking players out and they aren't competitive I agree. 

You are right in saying that Bale and Ramsey elevate the standard of the Welsh side significantly, but they are still not on the level of Ukrainian or Swedish national teams. Lets analyse the teams shall we. I could compare the Swedish team to the Welsh team, but I'll compare the Ukrainian team instead.

Yeah, Wales have the excellent Ramsey, but Ukraine have the arguably even more impressive Malinovskyi. Both players impress in Serie A for their respective clubs, but Malinovskyi has arguably been more impressive over the past two seasons. He is an integral player for Atalanta and scores and sets up goals for fun in Serie A. He was recently voted Player of the Month in Serie A in May, that is just last month. So for arguments sake, I won't even say that Malinovskyi is the player with more quality(Although I do believe that he is the better player), lets just say that they are at a similar level ability wise.

Then you mentioned Bale, who I believe is past his best, but still no doubt has some real quality about him. Ukraine have the likes of Zinchenko in response to Bale. He plays for one of the best club sides in the world at Man City and is fresh from winning the Premier League title with them. Left back is not even Zinchenko's best position, he's much more suited to playing as a left sided midfielder or even in central midfield. Yesterday he was the man of the match and gave Sweden all manner of headaches. So I think that we can agree that they are at a similar level as well.

Now lets go on to the rest of the players and this is where we see there's an obvious gulf in quality between the teams. Up front Ukraine have Yaremchuk, a striker who has scored goals for fun over the last couple of seasons for Ghent and who has strongly been linked to teams like AC Milan, Wolfsburg, Arsenal, West Ham and Wolves to name a few. While I don't think Moore will be leaving Championship side Cardiff City soon and if he does, it is highly unlikely to be to a club in one of the top leagues. Yaremchuk is a much better all round forward compared to Moore, I think this is fairly obvious. Then we have David James on the left wing, a good player, but Tsygankov of Dynamo Kyiv again is a better player in my opinion. I mean he has also been linked to big clubs around Europe and is generally more highly rated by respected pundits as well, if you read their reports and reviews. Add Yarmolenko's temperamental genius on the wing and again, Wales have no equivalent, if we exclude Bale. 

Moving to central midfield and Wales field Allen and Morrell of Championship sides Stoke City and Luton Town. Do we really want to insult the likes of Shaparenko, Stepanenko and even Sydorchuk by comparing them to the two aforementioned Welsh midfielders? There's literally no comparison.

Moving on to the respective defences, Ben Davies is an experienced player and good left back at that, Rodon is also a solid up and coming defender. But then there is also the likes of Mepham and Roberts, again two Championship level defenders. For Ukraine their defenders Zabrnyi(strongly linked with Chelsea), Mykolenko(linked to AC and Inter Milan,  Juventus and Man Utd), Matviyenko(Currently Ukraine's best central defender) are again simply more highly rated. Even Karavayev with his experience is a very valuable asset. I'd say that at least 3 out of Ukraine's defenders are better than the defenders that Wales have to offer in their own back four.

As for the keepers, Danny Ward has impressed for Wales, but so has Buschan for Ukraine and I think that even Ukraine's reserve keepers Trubin and Lunin are valued more highly than Ward. Lunin is at Real Madrid, while the extremely highly rated teen Trubin is wanted by a host of top clubs including both Milan clubs. Buschan is currently deemed better than both of them by Shevchenko, so I reckon he is probably better than Ward, with all due respect to the Welsh keeper.

I mean, objectively speaking, it's clear that Ukraine have many more quality players in their team than Wales do.

 

[Tommy]

4 hours ago, DeadLinesman said:

Tommy really fucking hates England doesn’t he 

I don't. You are really annoying lately. 

[Devil]

5 minutes ago, Michael said:

You are right in saying that Bale and Ramsey elevate the standard of the Welsh side significantly, but they are still not on the level of Ukrainian or Swedish national teams. Lets analyse the teams shall we. I could compare the Swedish team to the Welsh team, but I'll compare the Ukrainian team instead.

Yeah, Wales have the excellent Ramsey, but Ukraine have the arguably even more impressive Malinovskyi. Both players impress in Serie A for their respective clubs, but Malinovskyi has arguably been more impressive over the past two seasons. He is an integral player for Atalanta and scores and sets up goals for fun in Serie A. He was recently voted Player of the Month in Serie A in May, that is just last month. So for arguments sake, I won't even say that Malinovskyi is the player with more quality, lets just say that they are at a similar level ability wise.

Then you mentioned Bale, who I believe is past his best, but still no doubt has some real quality about him. Ukraine have the likes of Zinchenko in response to Bale. He plays for one of the best club sides in the world at Man City and is fresh from winning the Premier League title with them. Left back is not even Zinchenko's best position, he's much more suited to playing as a left sided midfielder or even in central midfield. Yesterday he was the man of the match and gave Sweden all manner of headaches. So I think that we can agree that they are at a similar level as well.

Now lets go on to the rest of the players and this is where we see there's an obvious gulf in quality between the teams. Up front Ukraine have Yaremchuk, a striker who has scored goals for fun over the last couple of seasons for Ghent and who has strongly been linked to teams like AC Milan, Wolfsburg, Arsenal, West Ham and Wolves to name a few. While I don't think Moore will be leaving Championship side Cardiff City soon and if he does, it is highly unlikely to be to a club in one of the top leagues. Yaremchuk is a much better all round forward compared to Moore, I think this is fairly obvious. Then we have David James on the left wing, a good player, but Tsygankov of Dynamo Kyiv again is a better player in my opinion. I mean he has also been linked to big clubs around Europe and is generally more highly rated by respected pundits as well, if you read their reports and reviews. Add Yarmolenko's temperamental genius on the wing and again, Wales have no equivalent, if we exclude Bale. 

Moving to central midfield and Wales field Allen and Morrell of Championship sides Stoke City and Luton Town. Do we really want to insult the likes of Shaparenko, Stepanenko and even Sydorchuk by comparing them to the two aforementioned Welsh midfielders? There's literally no comparison.

Moving on to the respective defences, Ben Davies is an experienced player and good left back at that, Rodon is also a solid up and coming defender. But then there is also the likes of Mepham and Roberts, again two Championship level defenders. For Ukraine their defenders Zabrnyi(strongly linked with Chelsea), Mykolenko(linked to AC and Inter Milan,  Juventus and Man Utd), Matviyenko(Currently Ukraine's best central defender) are again simply more highly rated. Even Karavayev with his experience is a very valuable asset. I'd say that at least 3 out of Ukraine's defenders are better than the defenders that Wales have to offer in their own back four.

As for the keepers, Danny Ward has impressed for Wales, but so has Buschan for Ukraine and I think that even Ukraine's reserve keepers Trubin and Lunin are valued more highly than Ward. Lunin is at Real Madrid, while the extremely highly rated teen Trubin is wanted by a host of top clubs including both Milan clubs. Buschan is currently deemed better than both of them by Shevchenko, so I reckon he is probably better than Ward, with all due respect to the Welsh keeper.

I mean, objectively speaking, it's clear that Ukraine have many more quality players in their team than Wales do.

 

@Michael

You wrote all that out in response to a post that said take them out both nations  and they wouldn't be competitive. 

I simply said Bale and Ramsey are that good they elevate the team to beat teams. 

 

[Michael]

4 minutes ago, Devil said:

@Michael

You wrote all that out in response to a post that said take them out both nations  and they wouldn't be competitive. 

I simply said Bale and Ramsey are that good they elevate the team to beat teams. 

 

Well from what you wrote, what makes you think that Wales wouldn't get defeated relatively comfortably by Ukraine, just like they got defeated by Denmark, even if they had Bale and Ramsey in their team? I went through an analysis of the players, to give evidence that clearly Ukraine are stronger than Wales, with or without Bale and Ramsey. 

[Stan]

25 minutes ago, Lucas said:

Let's be honest, it's never going to happen again is it.

It was always touted as a 'one off' to mark 60 years of the Championships by that daft corrupt idiot Platini, and he's never likely to be trusted again.

When it's back to what it knows best, Germany will be a great Euro's for what it's worth.

Agreed.

Maybe this can be the location for the inaugural forum meet-up  

[Devil]

1 hour ago, Michael said:

Well from what you wrote, what makes you think that Wales wouldn't get defeated relatively comfortably by Ukraine, just like they got defeated by Denmark, even if they had Bale and Ramsey in their team? I went through an analysis of the players, to give evidence that clearly Ukraine are stronger than Wales, with or without Bale and Ramsey. 

Again, I said competitive. 

I never once said Ukraine couldnt beat Wales, but Wales have proven the can be competive against most teams. 

I also never said Ukraine or Sweden weren't better. I'd take their star players over anything Sweden or Ukraine have to offer. 

And that includes Zinchenko.

[DeadLinesman]

1 hour ago, Tommy said:

I don't. You are really annoying lately. 

So Ukraine are winning this by miles. Why? Jesus stop being a pansy.

[Tommy]

9 minutes ago, DeadLinesman said:

So Ukraine are winning this by miles. Why? Jesus stop being a pansy.

Not by miles. But what I've seen yesterday, Ukraine and Sweden was much better than England vs. Germany. You were the slightly better out of two bad teams. 

[DeadLinesman]

Just now, Tommy said:

Not by miles. But what I've seen yesterday, Ukraine and Sweden was much better than England vs. Germany. You were the slightly better out of two bad teams. 

If you fully expect one team to beat another, you think it will be easy. That’s pretty much a given. Hey ho.

[Tommy]

4 minutes ago, DeadLinesman said:

If you fully expect one team to beat another, you think it will be easy. That’s pretty much a given. Hey ho.

Nothing worth having comes easy. 

[Whiskey]

So many edgel0rds.

[Dr. Gonzo]

6 hours ago, DeadLinesman said:

It’s always the way. If England win, it’s because everyone else is shit, yet teams get praised for beating shit England teams. You can’t make it up. It’s definitely not the best German team ever and they’re almost in some kind of transition, but they weren’t shit.

(Not saying you’ve said this Thomas X)

I mean the thing is watching England in this tournament... I don't think the side has looked great at all. But you can't argue against results, undefeated, no goals conceded, top of the group, knocked out Germany...

I don't think Germany are shit just because they're not as good as they've been in our lifetimes - I think they still have a good squad, it was just not likely to win anything imo. But I do think if we come up against a team like Italy in the final, it might go a bit differently than the matches against Germany and Croatia. I think this Italy side has a bit more competence about it.

But at the end of the day, this is international football and a knockout tournament. So I don't expect the quality of football to be the greatest (because it's international football) and I don't expect the best sides on paper to be the ones that necessarily go through (because it's a knockout tournament). Couple that with the fact that many players live for playing for their international sides... so we can see performances like that Swiss side rising up to meet the challenge of going toe to toe with that terrifying France squad (terrifying on paper, though, not that great once they hit the knockouts).

I don't think there's any easy games in an international tournament - but definitely not in the knockouts and anything can happen at this stage. Sooner or later, I hope we do "heat up" and see our players play a bit more positive football - but if they keep grinding out results without playing that great and it leads to England winning... who cares? I definitely don't.

Seeing an international team that's exciting and plays good football is always cool, but I doubt many Greek or Portuguese people were too upset when they shithoused their way to wins in the Euros.

[Dan+]

I had Ukraine down as a bit of a tournament dark horse, but weirdly, having seen them, I've not really been all that impressed, even though they have actually made it this far.

I fancy England but I'm still not 'totally' sold on our style. We're getting the results though.

The thing I think could undo England here, oddly, is a wonder goal. We are setting up defensively no matter who we play and I feel that one of Ukraine's biggest weapons are the long shots of Yarmolenko or Malinovskyi. I could see that being a threat to us.

It'll feel like an away game. The Italians aren't going to want a potential final that's an away game.

[Dan+]

13 hours ago, Batard said:

I look at this England side, and the clean sheets are a little misleading as they will give you a chance and I don't see them being able to outscore the opposition either. I can absolutely see them being able to grind out a path to the final, but against Spain/Italy/Belgium, they've not got enough in the tank to beat one of them. 

That is true really. I think we have for the most part defended pretty well (which I would expect given how much we surrender going forward) but we have certainly had our fair share of fortune. Your jaw just dropped when Muller didn't score.

[Devil-Dick Willie]

22 minutes ago, Dan said:

That is true really. I think we have for the most part defended pretty well (which I would expect given how much we surrender going forward) but we have certainly had our fair share of fortune. Your jaw just dropped when Muller didn't score.

I threw my phone across the room. 

[Devil-Dick Willie]

Once again a very simple path has been laid out before a very average England team. But I don't think Ukraine is the hurdle that trips them. |

There's no shot England are beating the winner of Belgium vs Italy in the final. They'd need Spain to do the trick for them, then hope to beat an average Spain. 

[Michael]

12 hours ago, Devil said:

Again, I said competitive. 

I never once said Ukraine couldnt beat Wales, but Wales have proven the can be competive against most teams. 

I also never said Ukraine or Sweden weren't better. I'd take their star players over anything Sweden or Ukraine have to offer. 

And that includes Zinchenko.

Yeah, well we could say that about most teams at these Euros then, maybe with the exception of a poor Turkey team. Scotland were competitive with England, Hungary were competitive with both France and Germany, Finland were competitive with Denmark and the list goes on. Sure, on a good day, certain teams can get positive results against other sides deemed to be stronger than them. But I am glad you clarified that you didn't mean that Ukraine or Sweden weren't better teams than Wales. I know you never literally said that they weren't, but you seemed to suggest they were, by kind of grouping them together in your initial post about these teams.

As regards to Ramsey and Bale being better than any of the players that Sweden and Ukraine have, I beg to differ. However, you are entitled to your opinion, but I think that the evidence proves otherwise. Malinovskyi for starters has been excellent for Atalanta over the last 2 seasons that he has been with them. Not only has he scored crucial goals for them(and amazing goals at that), he has been the assist king in Italy, he had the most assists last season in Serie A and as I mentioned earlier, he was rewarded for his impressive performances by being voted the best player in Serie A for May 2021. I am not suggesting that Ramsey is bad, but his level of performances have paled in comparison to Malinovskyi's over the last two years, there's no comparison to be made. Even young Swedish player Kulusevski has performed at a higher level than Ramsey at Juventus.

Bale on the other hand, is past his best. Young Zinchenko has proved his credentials at the best club in England, even though he has been shoe-horned into a position, that is not his preferred choice. Again, Zinchenko has performed better than Bale over the past year in the Premier League overall. In fact Bale was considered a flop during the first half of the season up until February. His performances did improve after that, but still, scoring goals for Tottenham against sides like Sheffield United and Burnley, is nothing to get too excited about.

Zinchenko was a vital player in Man City's title winning side last season and some of his performances were exceptional. It's no surprise that Pep rates him so highly. Sweden have Forsberg, who is also definitely currently a player playing at a superior level to Bale and he notably played a key role in RB Leipzig reaching the Champions League semi finals two seasons ago. If you were comparing the Bale of 5 years ago to these two players, then you might have a point, but as it currently stands, all the evidence suggests that Zinchenko and Forsberg are the better players. The exciting thing about Zinchenko, is that his best years are still ahead of him, as he is only going to get better.

Add the likes of Isak and Yaremchuk who have been scoring for fun for their club sides and who are destined to join big clubs this summer, then we have two other very impressive players. We all also know what the likes of Yarmolenko are capable of when they decide to turn it on and I am not even going to mention the up and coming talents emerging from this Ukrainian team, destined for great things.

For all the talent Ramsey and Bale have when they play at their peak, when exactly did they impress at these Euros? They had one impressive match against a weak Turkish team, but other than that, they were relatively unnoticeable. Against Switzerland, Ramsey worked hard in midfield, but when in possession, he did nothing of any significance, while Bale was almost anonymous against the Swiss. It was similar against the Italians, where Ramsey did a lot of running, but was largely ineffective and Bale did nothing really of note. Well, the one thing of note that Bale actually did, was blast a sitter way over the bar after the ball was set up on a plate for him. He was unmarked in front of the Italian goal. I won't even bother with the duo's performances against the Danes, because that's self-explanatory, but I think my point has been made.

[Devil]

33 minutes ago, Michael said:

Yeah, well we could say that about most teams at these Euros then, maybe with the exception of a poor Turkey team. Scotland were competitive with England, Hungary were competitive with both France and Germany, Finland were competitive with Denmark and the list goes on. Sure, on a good day, certain teams can get positive results against other sides deemed to be stronger than them. But I am glad you clarified that you didn't mean that Ukraine or Sweden weren't better teams than Wales. I know you never literally said that they weren't, but you seemed to suggest they were, by kind of grouping them together in your initial post about these teams.

As regards to Ramsey and Bale being better than any of the players that Sweden and Ukraine have, I beg to differ. However, you are entitled to your opinion, but I think that the evidence proves otherwise. Malinovskyi for starters has been excellent for Atalanta over the last 2 seasons that he has been with them. Not only has he scored crucial goals for them(and amazing goals at that), he has been the assist king in Italy, he had the most assists last season in Serie A and as I mentioned earlier, he was rewarded for his impressive performances by being voted the best player in Serie A for May 2021. I am not suggesting that Ramsey is bad, but his level of performances have paled in comparison to Malinovskyi's over the last two years, there's no comparison to be made. Even young Swedish player Kulusevski has performed at a higher level than Ramsey at Juventus.

Bale on the other hand, is past his best. Young Zinchenko has proved his credentials at the best club in England, even though he has been shoe-horned into a position, that is not his preferred choice. Again, Zinchenko has performed better than Bale over the past year in the Premier League overall. In fact Bale was considered a flop during the first half of the season up until February. His performances did improve after that, but still, scoring goals for Tottenham against sides like Sheffield United and Burnley, is nothing to get too excited about.

Zinchenko was a vital player in Man City's title winning side last season and some of his performances were exceptional. It's no surprise that Pep rates him so highly. Sweden have Forsberg, who is also definitely currently a player playing at a superior level to Bale and he notably played a key role in RB Leipzig reaching the Champions League semi finals two seasons ago. If you were comparing the Bale of 5 years ago to these two players, then you might have a point, but as it currently stands, all the evidence suggests that Zinchenko and Forsberg are the better players. The exciting thing about Zinchenko, is that his best years are still ahead of him, as he is only going to get better.

Add the likes of Isak and Yaremchuk who have been scoring for fun for their club sides and who are destined to join big clubs this summer, then we have two other very impressive players. We all also know what the likes of Yarmolenko are capable of when they decide to turn it on and I am not even going to mention the up and coming talents emerging from this Ukrainian team, destined for great things.

For all the talent Ramsey and Bale have when they play at their peak, when exactly did they impress at these Euros? They had one impressive match against a weak Turkish team, but other than that, they were relatively unnoticeable. Against Switzerland, Ramsey worked hard in midfield, but when in possession, he did nothing of any significance, while Bale was almost anonymous against the Swiss. It was similar against the Italians, where Ramsey did a lot of running, but was largely ineffective and Bale did nothing really of note. Well, the one thing of note that Bale actually did, was blast a sitter way over the bar after the ball was set up on a plate for him. He was unmarked in front of the Italian goal. I won't even bother with the duo's performances against the Danes, because that's self-explanatory, but I think my point has been made.

 

All about opinions mate, I respect yours and think you always put over a fair debate. Zinchenko is a good player, I agree he's more than held his own in the City squad. 

Bale and Ramsey are coming to the decline period of their careers but they are still brilliant players on their day. 

And yes, they are competitive.... 

[Lucas]

7 hours ago, Devil-Dick Willie said:

Once again a very simple path has been laid out before a very average England team. But I don't think Ukraine is the hurdle that trips them. |

There's no shot England are beating the winner of Belgium vs Italy in the final. They'd need Spain to do the trick for them, then hope to beat an average Spain. 

That would be your worst nightmare if we did 

[Storts]

This topic is baffling. I feel some trolling from @Tommy though - he's playing the role well.

This England team are much better than Ukraine. @Cicero watching a completely different game too - after a shaky first ten minutes against the Germans we had that game so under control. Felt very comfortable from where I was sitting. 

 

[Stan]

4 minutes ago, shut up said:

We would beat Italy in the final. We have a better squad of players than them

France had a better squad of players than Switzerland yet still lost

It's not always as simple just having a better squad of players (on paper), especially in tournaments. 

[Stan]

Just now, Storts said:

This topic is baffling. I feel some trolling from @Tommy though - he's playing the role well.

This England team are much better than Ukraine. @Cicero watching a completely different game too - after a shaky first ten minutes against the Germans we had that game so under control. Felt very comfortable from where I was sitting. 

 

Lynch?