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Harvsky

Could Bundesliga Lose 4th CL Spot To Ligue 1 in 2019/20?

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This is the first time no German team has advanced from the group stages of the Europa League, Hoffenheim and Hertha are the first German teams to finish bottom of a group and Dortmund are the only team to have qualified for the Europa League despite only picking up two Champions League points.

In 40 matches played by German teams in Europe this campaign, 21 have been lost and only 11 won. Excluding Bayern, that record is six wins from 34 games.

That measly return will dramatically effect the five-year coefficient that determines the number of European spots a league is awarded. The Bundesliga is now way behind Spain, England and Italy by that measure and the gap to France, in fifth, is shrinking by the year. France also have four teams left in European competition. Should the French leapfrog Germany, the Bundesliga will have just three Champions League teams – although this won't happen before 2019-20.

http://amp.dw.com/en/repeated-european-failures-could-cost-the-bundesliga-dearly/a-41713396

Could it happen?

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Well, no, probably not. It clearly states in the first sentence that this is the first time it's happened, so the chances are probably quite slim. 

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I'm sure the same was said the first year English teams turned to shite en masse 

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I don’t know... I see German domestic football with a serious issue that’s growing aside from Bayern Munich.

Dortmund for example continue to distance themselves from the power struggle and everyone else don’t seem to have resources.

Not now, but if things aren’t sorted within the next 4 to 5 years, they could be in serious trouble. Look at what happened to Italian football and German football has never been in the dominant position Italian football once was. 

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Dortmund did a good job of making things exciting for a few years and also putting together a top-class European team, even once Bayern had Guardiola and they were domestically untouchable, and even during their disastrous run in Klopp's last season. But since they sold Hummels and Gundogan, they've been a mess pretty much.

You also had some of the other big clubs like Schalke, Wolsburg and Leverkusen putting together good European campaigns, and they've struggled recently, though Tedesco seems to be getting Schalke back on track.  It's not so much an issue of Bayern's dominance, since we've seen that it's possible for German sides to be strong in Europe regardless.

But now we've seen all of those teams drop just because of poor management,  and the result is that 2nd went to a Leipzig side that doesn't any experience in Europe. However, it willbe interesting to see how they do in the Europa league.

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On 10/12/2017 at 4:11 AM, SirBalon said:

I don’t know... I see German domestic football with a serious issue that’s growing aside from Bayern Munich.

Dortmund for example continue to distance themselves from the power struggle and everyone else don’t seem to have resources.

Not now, but if things aren’t sorted within the next 4 to 5 years, they could be in serious trouble. Look at what happened to Italian football and German football has never been in the dominant position Italian football once was. 

 

Italian football was rife with administrational issues and corrupion. Shite overrated teams full of 37 year olds playing in decrepit stadiums that were half empty. Germany doesn't have this problem.

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15 minutes ago, Tanksie said:

 

Italian football was rife with administrational issues and corrupion. Shite overrated teams full of 37 year olds playing in decrepit stadiums that were half empty. Germany doesn't have this problem.

That’s true, but there doesn’t have to be only one way to lose a grip on something.  Various ways can cause it and each individual league has its own unique problems.  Look at the English league where other issues have been causing it over the past 10 years or so to lose a hold on what it once had internationally (European football)... It wasn’t the same problems as what had occurred in Italy, but yet the threat has been there on losing that fourth slot for the Champions League. This year has seen a revival of sorts in from English clubs and although one season isn’t enough to measure if things have been sorted even if the eventual winner were to be an English club, you can sense that things are more universally covered by England’s top teams. Obviously here in England it’s been down mostly to buying in that competitiveness from abroad, but the youth national side has also seen benefits over the past 12 months that weren’t there for a long time.

Without a doubt there is a lot of talent in Germany’s youth setups and the acadamies are doing fine work which has been carried since about a decade ago after many changes.  But at club competition level, there seems to be a lot ot yoyoing with Germany’s other top division clubs... There’s been no stability so as to build on something and actually make a genuine challenge for the foreseeable future on Bayern which is pulling away. I mean... Bayern started the season full of mediocre football and even results, but look at them now because no other club has enough power to make an advance. This is the issue that has to be addressed like in France. You can’t have one club feeding off their competitors when you also have to take into account that some of that young talent will also move abroad.

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The benefit Italian clubs have is that if they did finally sort their internal issues out I.e. Stadium problems, then Inter, Milan, Roma and Napoli are all bigger clubs than most German sides and they'd be competing at the top of Europe again.

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The German league has turned into the Bayern league since they started taking Dortmund players, and the rest of the core and top rated players seem to be on their way out. RB is helping, but they just don't have the following that the Italian clubs do. However, their attendance and economy is also a lot better. If Italy was to get back on track with the stadiums and growing economy, then I don't see the likes of Bayern, Dortmund, Schalke and co compete in Europe with the likes of Juventus, Internazionale, AC Milan, Roma, Napoli, and Lazio. Juventus has certainly provided the footprint to improving with their new stadium, and now it's about time Inter and AC both come together and either improve the San Siro, or go their own ways, build their own stadiums, and go from there.

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On 12/9/2017 at 18:11, SirBalon said:

everyone else don’t seem to have resources.

Well, not everyone. 

 

640x360?v=1379064747000

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On 12/10/2017 at 00:11, SirBalon said:

I don’t know... I see German domestic football with a serious issue that’s growing aside from Bayern Munich.

Dortmund for example continue to distance themselves from the power struggle and everyone else don’t seem to have resources.

Not now, but if things aren’t sorted within the next 4 to 5 years, they could be in serious trouble. Look at what happened to Italian football and German football has never been in the dominant position Italian football once was. 

To be honest, that's been the case for the last 30 years at least, only the name of the club that challenges Bayern for a while changes. If it's BVB, Werder, Leverkusen, Schalke, Stuttgart, Wolfsburg or Kaiserslautern, it doesn't matter. The fact is that with the exception of Bayern, none seem to be able to properly manage their club long-term and capitalise on short-term successes. 

Take us for example, challenged for the title for the most part of the 2000s, can't afford a 5 million player nowadays and struggle against relegation year in year out. Pathetic.

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1 hour ago, Tommy said:

Well, not everyone. 

 

640x360?v=1379064747000

True mate, but you have to ask the question as to what those resources are intended for in the sporting sense.  There are a number of clubs like them around Europe being managed by one or another multinational.

51 minutes ago, nudge said:

To be honest, that's been the case for the last 30 years at least, only the name of the club that challenges Bayern for a while changes. If it's BVB, Werder, Leverkusen, Schalke, Stuttgart, Wolfsburg or Kaiserslautern, it doesn't matter. The fact is that with the exception of Bayern, none seem to be able to properly manage their club long-term and capitalise on short-term successes. 

Take us for example, challenged for the title for the most part of the 2000s, can't afford a 5 million player nowadays and struggle against relegation year in year out. Pathetic.

To be honest I think the whole of European football is suffering from a similar thing and it’s all going in the same direction. The difference with the Bundesliga (alongside Ligue1) is that there is only one club capable of maintaining a highly competitive brand name and also have everything it takes to pump those resources into the football side of things.  In a few of the other major European leagues there’s maybe 2 or 3 teams able to do this and it creates a false sense of competitivity but when you look at the future and the growth levels (the genuine ones with which we can exclude PSG and Man City) then I’ve changed my mind to my first statement (the one you’ve quoted) in the sense that they’re all the same.

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1 minute ago, SirBalon said:

To be honest I think the whole of European football is suffering from a similar thing and it’s all going in the same direction. The difference with the Bundesliga (alongside Ligue1) is that there is only one club capable of maintaining a highly competitive brand name and also have everything it takes to pump those resources into the football side of things.  In a few of the other major European leagues there’s maybe 2 or 3 teams able to do this and it creates a false sense of competitivity but when you look at the future and the growth levels (the genuine ones with which we can exclude PSG and Man City) then I’ve changed my mind to my first statement (the one you’ve quoted) in the sense that they’re all the same.

One may argue that 50+1 rule has held German clubs back compared to other major European leagues. I wouldn't mind it in general as I never cared much about European competitions if we had a highly competitive domestic league as a result, but the Bayern domination is just boring. 

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2 minutes ago, nudge said:

One may argue that 50+1 rule has held German clubs back compared to other major European leagues. I wouldn't mind it in general as I never cared much about European competitions if we had a highly competitive domestic league as a result, but the Bayern domination is just boring. 

Great point. Could you imagine that rule in Italy? Sure Juventus would be fine, but not Roma, Inter or AC. When the Italian economy sank, certain clubs were saved by outside investments. Inter being one of the them.

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1 minute ago, nudge said:

One may argue that 50+1 rule has held German clubs back compared to other major European leagues. I wouldn't mind it in general as I never cared much about European competitions if we had a highly competitive domestic league as a result, but the Bayern domination is just boring. 

Indeed... It’s like anything in life that becomes repetitive, predictable and in turn monotonous. It’s like me talking about wearing tight underpants all the time... Everyone knows it’s coming no matter what the debate is about! :ph34r:

On a serious note though... I agree with you and as I said on the previous post, some leagues are masked and hidden with the same issues with a false sense of competitivity. Aside from anomalies which can happen, anyone really wants to tell me that there is only one winner or an option of a second for real?

If there’s more, then that can actually be detrimental to what really matters to club owners or however the elite club is run be it through private ownership, shareholder PLC or fan owned... Which is a low standard league on the European level for the top clubs in the long run and what sells in reality is Europe’s elite competition in the global market.  Obviously for fans of clubs aside from the elite ones, they don’t care and just want to have a sensation of a possibility, but how real is that “reality”

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IT should do,  German teams apart from Munich and Dortmund the last few years have only offered something in Europe, the rest of the teams have been awful and struggled to even get out of groups in the Uefa cup.

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On ‎23‎/‎01‎/‎2018 at 17:07, VanPaddy said:

IT should do,  German teams apart from Munich and Dortmund the last few years have only offered something in Europe, the rest of the teams have been awful and struggled to even get out of groups in the Uefa cup.

Apart from one year which was last year, when Monaco and Lyon reached semi finals in Europe, when have the French clubs collectively done well? I'm struggling...

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1 hour ago, Lucas said:

Apart from one year which was last year, when Monaco and Lyon reached semi finals in Europe, when have the French clubs collectively done well? I'm struggling...

Well this is about Germany, just think the others are so weak in Europe. But regarding France Paris SG will probably get far in Europe plus Lyon are decent in the Europa league. 

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38 minutes ago, VanPaddy said:

Well this is about Germany, just think the others are so weak in Europe. But regarding France Paris SG will probably get far in Europe plus Lyon are decent in the Europa league. 

Yeah but the point is that the closest country to taking away their 4th place is France and if they don't consistently better German teams they won't be taking that 4th spot away from them. It will need more than PSG and Lyon to do that.

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On 12/9/2017 at 17:26, Inverted said:

Dortmund did a good job of making things exciting for a few years and also putting together a top-class European team, even once Bayern had Guardiola and they were domestically untouchable, and even during their disastrous run in Klopp's last season. But since they sold Hummels and Gundogan, they've been a mess pretty much.

You also had some of the other big clubs like Schalke, Wolsburg and Leverkusen putting together good European campaigns, and they've struggled recently, though Tedesco seems to be getting Schalke back on track.  It's not so much an issue of Bayern's dominance, since we've seen that it's possible for German sides to be strong in Europe regardless.

But now we've seen all of those teams drop just because of poor management,  and the result is that 2nd went to a Leipzig side that doesn't any experience in Europe. However, it willbe interesting to see how they do in the Europa league.

I'm pretty confident Leipzig will become the 2nd fiddle side in Germany now to Bayern. Grotesque club but from a footballing point of view they're very well run and it'll work for them, I've no doubt.

I also expect Red Bull to be in England within five years, and to succeed over here too.

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6 hours ago, Dan said:

I'm pretty confident Leipzig will become the 2nd fiddle side in Germany now to Bayern. Grotesque club but from a footballing point of view they're very well run and it'll work for them, I've no doubt.

I also expect Red Bull to be in England within five years, and to succeed over here too.

Trying to think who’d sell their soul. Red Bull Saints? 

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24 minutes ago, Batard said:

Trying to think who’d sell their soul. Red Bull Saints? 

Red Bull Swansea I think would be pretty certain. Could imagine Red Bull Brom and Red Bull Stoke too. 

Remember that Bradford were actually in talks about it too, if rumours are to be believed.

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19 minutes ago, Cannabis said:

Red Bull Swansea I think would be pretty certain. Could imagine Red Bull Brom and Red Bull Stoke too. 

Remember that Bradford were actually in talks about it too, if rumours are to be believed.

REDbull Everton...It has a catch to it, doesn't it mate? :ph34r:

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3 hours ago, Cannabis said:

Red Bull Swansea I think would be pretty certain. Could imagine Red Bull Brom and Red Bull Stoke too. 

Remember that Bradford were actually in talks about it too, if rumours are to be believed.

Red Bull Brom sounds like a Russian boxer xD

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On 2/3/2018 at 10:06, Dan said:

I'm pretty confident Leipzig will become the 2nd fiddle side in Germany now to Bayern. Grotesque club but from a footballing point of view they're very well run and it'll work for them, I've no doubt.

I'd be willing to bet that they won't, or at least not for a long time. They won't be able to keep their key players and will have trouble replacing them, the owners will not spend hundreds of millions every summer, Rangnick will throw his toys out of the pram sooner or later once things get tougher, and their own youth setup is not all that rosy as it has been made to look. Fully expect them to go the same way Hoffenheim (and partially Wolfsburg) went.

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7 hours ago, nudge said:

I'd be willing to bet that they won't, or at least not for a long time. They won't be able to keep their key players and will have trouble replacing them, the owners will not spend hundreds of millions every summer, Rangnick will throw his toys out of the pram sooner or later once things get tougher, and their own youth setup is not all that rosy as it has been made to look. Fully expect them to go the same way Hoffenheim (and partially Wolfsburg) went.

You'll know more on it than me so fair play, I've read a few things about them and it seems a decent set up but time will tell. The question is, if they don't, who will? If anyone?

You top half in Germany is as tight as the bottom half in England.

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9 minutes ago, Dan said:

You'll know more on it than me so fair play, I've read a few things about them and it seems a decent set up but time will tell. The question is, if they don't, who will? If anyone?

You top half in Germany is as tight as the bottom half in England.

Oh it's just a speculation, after all. I might just as well be wrong, I hope I'm not though :ph34r: 

I personally don't see anyone challenging Bayern any time soon, to be honest. The old "traditional" clubs that had good spells at the top of the league in the last two decades all end up the same after a few years and just can't sustain it, and the likes of Hoffenheim, Wolfsburg (and hopefully RB) also suffer from bad management and diminished interest of sponsors/owners/financial backers after a while once the initial hype is gone and there are no trophies to show for. 

Bundesliga would be an extremely tight and unpredictable league without Bayern, haha. I'm not even sure if there's a long-term solution to this, to be fair.

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On 03/02/2018 at 12:37, Dan said:

MK Dons.

Seeing as Red Bulls F1 team is actually based in Milton Keynes it would almost be weird if this didn't happen.

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