Transgender People in Sport

[Bluewolf]

On 12/05/2021 at 00:24, nudge said:

Regardless what someone identifies as, there's the biological reality of male or female sex and all the physical properties that come with it. 

 

13 hours ago, Danny said:

Not seen the science behind it, anyone got any links?

Transgender women’s performances generally decline as their testosterone does. But not every male advantage dissipates when testosterone drops. Some advantages, such as their bigger bone structure, greater lung capacity, and larger heart size remain, says Alison Heather, a physiologist at the University of Otago in New Zealand. Testosterone also promotes muscle memory—an ability to regain muscle mass after a period of detraining—by increasing the number of nuclei in muscles, and these added nuclei don’t go away. So transgender women have a heightened ability to build strength even after they transition, Heather says.

 

On 12/05/2021 at 00:56, Rucksackfranzose said:

Depends in sports where athleticism play a subordinate role like chess, billiard, snooker, curling etc why not?

Agree with this, I would have no problem with people competing in sports where their physical size or strength would not be a factor in the outcome.. you could probably include things like Diving as well for example where it's about more about technique.. 

On 12/05/2021 at 01:32, Dr. Gonzo said:

It might just be one of those things I'll never understand... but I don't want to make people feel like shit just because they think different/live different to me.

But equally why should you be labelled as Transphobic or a hater because you have a different viewpoint?? I feel the same way as you, I don't care what people want to do with their lives that's their choices and their business but like religion don't try and force feed me your viewpoint as being the only one that matters because just as they have one I have one too and it can't just be dismissed because it's not in line with their own... 

On 12/05/2021 at 02:32, Devil-Dick Willie said:

Yes, trans people should compete in the category they were biologically born in, or better yet, in their own section with their own rules and binding laws.

This I totally agree with and was having this very discussion with someone at work about the other week... 

Personally I don't agree with it, there are clearly advantages to be had with height, weight and strength... I don't know how anyone could get satisfaction from a sport that they win by having an advantage anyway.. I can't imagine how it must feel being a female athlete who has worked and trained hard over a number of years to be the best they can be only for a Transgender athlete to suddenly pop up and undermine all that.. There are Male and Female sports for a reason but now those lines are getting blurred.. 

[Cicero]

Translympics 

[Azeem]

Having a separate category for them makes the most sense. 

[Danny]

This topic will open a can of worms in terms of what is considered an advantage to an athlete, because there are plenty of advantages that we accept within sport. Michael Phelps is literally built like a fish, physically there is no one that could compete with him because of the advantage he gained from his body shape. There is no real difference between the advantage gained from body shape and the advantage gained from going through puberty as a male, or the advantage of a non-trans woman having higher testosterone levels than other women. Prior to this what we use to create a definitive difference in athletes has been fairly arbitrary in that it's simply male and female, and even the scientific components that we use to create the difference between the sexes can be argued. I.e. are you still a woman if you can't give birth, don't have breasts etc.

Where we are at the moment is a battleground where trans people don't want to be excluded from competing within the race that their gender puts them in and non trans people not wanting to lose in a race where they haven't had the same advantage of growing up with male testosterone, and then also athletes such as Caster Semenya who were born female and simply have a higher testosterone count that most women. And even then it's debatable how much of an advantage that gives her as there is no proof that she is benefiting from the more potent male testosterone and has the correct receptors to use it.

That's what I gathered from reading a research paper and listening to a Sky Sports podcast on my lunch break today anyway 

 

From my very limited experience and research in this field, I feel like we will eventually move to a point where differences in athletes is less based on gender alone and becomes more based on grouping of testosterone levels, female and male.

On a side note, what was interesting was research done on I believe the US Airforce where they kept records on trans recruits and essentially trans women (male to female) generally lose their competitive edge over females after 1 year of taking blockers when it comes to strength, i.e. push ups. But it took over two years for trans women to lose their competitive edge when it came to running, which goes against the evidence supplied by the Olympic Committee that they lose their muscle (I think they measured this through MRI scans) advantage after just one year.

What is certain is that if you accept in law that trans women are women then you will have to eventually alter how you differentiate the athletes through a metric that easier to measure i.e. testosterone levels (taking into account male testosterone vs female) or...you accept the competitive advantage trans women have had is no different to the advantage that someone physically has that isn't testosterone based, i.e. a Michael Phelps.

[Devil]

18 hours ago, McAzeem said:

Having a separate category for them makes the most sense. 

Only issue with that is there isn't enough competitors to justify having a separate category at this time. 

As others have said, each to their own, how someone chooses to live their life is their own choice but I'm a firm believer that if you make certain life choices you have to accept that if your interested in physical sports you can't compete in female competition as you have an unfair advantage. 

You don't get more physical than weight lifting.

[Azeem]

1 hour ago, Devil said:

Only issue with that is there isn't enough competitors to justify having a separate category at this time. 

As others have said, each to their own, how someone chooses to live their life is their own choice but I'm a firm believer that if you make certain life choices you have to accept that if your interested in physical sports you can't compete in female competition as you have an unfair advantage. 

You don't get more physical than weight lifting.

Yes, these multi-sporting events don't add any new sport or category unless there are enough medals to give in the end but this might increase their participation and make sports more inclusive for them. From what I understood these types of individual sports are cheaper than team sports usually, you just need a system in place to prepare them in a given time. Look at China's rise in Olympics. I'm sure trans can focus on a certain sports at these events like even most counties to do increase their medal tally

[Azeem]

IOC rules transgender athletes will not have to lower testosterone levels to compete.

[Guest]

On 22/06/2021 at 18:46, Danny said:

This topic will open a can of worms in terms of what is considered an advantage to an athlete, because there are plenty of advantages that we accept within sport. Michael Phelps is literally built like a fish, physically there is no one that could compete with him because of the advantage he gained from his body shape. There is no real difference between the advantage gained from body shape and the advantage gained from going through puberty as a male, or the advantage of a non-trans woman having higher testosterone levels than other women. Prior to this what we use to create a definitive difference in athletes has been fairly arbitrary in that it's simply male and female, and even the scientific components that we use to create the difference between the sexes can be argued. I.e. are you still a woman if you can't give birth, don't have breasts etc.

Where we are at the moment is a battleground where trans people don't want to be excluded from competing within the race that their gender puts them in and non trans people not wanting to lose in a race where they haven't had the same advantage of growing up with male testosterone, and then also athletes such as Caster Semenya who were born female and simply have a higher testosterone count that most women. And even then it's debatable how much of an advantage that gives her as there is no proof that she is benefiting from the more potent male testosterone and has the correct receptors to use it.

That's what I gathered from reading a research paper and listening to a Sky Sports podcast on my lunch break today anyway 

 

From my very limited experience and research in this field, I feel like we will eventually move to a point where differences in athletes is less based on gender alone and becomes more based on grouping of testosterone levels, female and male.

On a side note, what was interesting was research done on I believe the US Airforce where they kept records on trans recruits and essentially trans women (male to female) generally lose their competitive edge over females after 1 year of taking blockers when it comes to strength, i.e. push ups. But it took over two years for trans women to lose their competitive edge when it came to running, which goes against the evidence supplied by the Olympic Committee that they lose their muscle (I think they measured this through MRI scans) advantage after just one year.

What is certain is that if you accept in law that trans women are women then you will have to eventually alter how you differentiate the athletes through a metric that easier to measure i.e. testosterone levels (taking into account male testosterone vs female) or...you accept the competitive advantage trans women have had is no different to the advantage that someone physically has that isn't testosterone based, i.e. a Michael Phelps.

One of the arguments is that as you said some people are genetically better at some sports.  If I was to practise all the time there would still be some women who would run faster than me etc because of their genetics despite me being male. I think in general though if you take the elite of men and women in alot of sports men will out perform them. It's not always the case, there are some sports women are better at like synchronised swimming and some gymnastics. There is however the social issues as well. Men tend to take part in more sports so you would expect more men to be at the top it's not always genetic. I do have a lot of sympathy for trans athletes. However as far as I am aware they dont debate what their natural sex is they debate their gender. Which if you look in the dictionary is a different thing and is more about how you identify as a person. Therefore you could argue that you arent saying they cant compete because of their gender its their sex which they are less likely to debate. I do think it is very important to trans athletes though and I think some people dont get that at times. Like you said though the more we learn the more we know that some people wont be able to compete with other athletes no matter what they do as they have a genetic advantage. As we understand these genetic advantages more saying trans athletes cant enter because of a generic advantage becomes harder to justify 

[OrangeKhrush]

Penn State female athletes finally speaking out about it.  thry did so in a very respectful manner but what they say rings true.   Lia Thomas before "transitioning" was ranked 452nd in men's collegiate swimming, "she" is absolutely destroying females and costing them opportunities.   

 

if one was really liberal then men pretending to be woman for competitive edge would be a moral outrage as it spits in the face of actual female performers.  

to highlight the dominance of males vs females in Australia a school of boys asked to compete in the top league of netball and completely destroyed the girls teams by on average 30pt win margins including the 7 year rolling champions.    

the average male athlete holds a significant physical advantage over the equal average female athletes.  if the men's US hockey team plays the female team it will be a American football score.

[Waylander]

I really think if men are going to be transgender and become women they should be advised not to do sports professionally.  Does not seem a major sacrifice to me............

[OrangeKhrush]

4 hours ago, Waylander said:

I really think if men are going to be transgender and become women they should be advised not to do sports professionally.  Does not seem a major sacrifice to me............

or encourage transgender divisions

[Rick]

It’s a joke from top to bottom. That swimming fucker who is like 6’5” and absolutely destroying women in competition is a fucking laugh. 

[JoshBRFC+]

It's really rather simple... if you're born with a dyiick then you cannot compete in Women's sports for the remainder of your life. Whether you decide to tuck in in to make a pretend vagina or chop it off, it's irrelevant - you shouldn't be able to compete.

Can you imagine that happening in boxing or mma? Where people's lives are on the line? Why should it be different in other sports where some women work their whole life to reach the pinnacle? To then see a confused born male come and unfairly compete against them in a women's sport.

[DeadLinesman]

12 minutes ago, JoshBRFC said:

Can you imagine that happening in boxing or mma? Where people's lives are on the line?

 

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9983177/Outrage-transgender-MMA-fighter-defeats-French-woman.html

 

Disclaimer. - I don’t read the mail. It’s the first link that was there

[JoshBRFC+]

4 minutes ago, DeadLinesman said:

 

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9983177/Outrage-transgender-MMA-fighter-defeats-French-woman.html

 

Disclaimer. - I don’t read the mail. It’s the first link that was there

I did think .. shall I have a search bit I thought noooooo it will not happen. Definitely wouldn’t in boxing 

In all seriousness I find it disgusting to be honest in combat sport should any transgender fight against born women. 

[Cicero]

Just make a separate Coed team for each sport. 

[JoshBRFC+]

11 minutes ago, Cicero said:

Just make a separate Coed team for each sport. 

If men wanting to be women gets more popular, that seems like the most logical scenario tbf.

[MUFC]

33 minutes ago, JoshBRFC said:

If men wanting to be women gets more popular, that seems like the most logical scenario tbf.

[Mel81x+]

Transgender players banned from international rugby league - BBC Sport

First FINA and now Rugby. I guess everyone was just waiting on one body to take a stand and then follow suite till a solution comes to the front on how the integrations can occur.

[Waylander]

For me it makes sense to do this.

Surely if you push to have your sex amended my medicine and surgery it is not a natural event and never completely successful.

I would argue it is fair in this regard that any men undergoing this surgery need to know they cannot compete in a professional sports or the olympics. I don't see that as a major sacrifice when weighed against getting their new sexuality and they can still play as an amateur.

I suspect a few of having ulterior motives. 

 

 

[Claret and Blue]

Transgender ⚧ need their own competitions. Fuck letting men who've turned into woman compete against women. 

 

Saw one in mma fight nearly kill her.. 

 

Not a chance a man born a man should be able to change then compete against a woman. What next tyson fury turning into Tracey fury and fighting sheilds. 

 

Although that little weird cunt Frank Malonie who's now a woman would support it 

[Mel81x+]

Its going to cause some kind of quiet riot considering it does show shades of exclusion but it is terribly unfair and will remain to be so. The real question now is how many other sporting bodies are going to get behind this because so far we've only had two. 

 

[Waylander]

2 hours ago, Mel81x said:

Its going to cause some kind of quiet riot considering it does show shades of exclusion but it is terribly unfair and will remain to be so. The real question now is how many other sporting bodies are going to get behind this because so far we've only had two. 

I suppose more will when they get winners that look too masculine and then it would probably get challenged.

 

[Mel81x+]

18 hours ago, Waylander said:

I suppose more will when they get winners that look too masculine and then it would probably get challenged.

 

Yeah I think its also dependent on the sport itself. I can't see all of them saying no to this really. Football as an example, may not necessarily say no or ban trasngender athletes competing in women's tournaments.

[Reluctant Striker]

It feels like a topic that's somehow become one of expert opinion for a huge amount of people.

I may be mistaken, because I'm not an expert, but everyday transgender people are perhaps on about their thoughts & experiences on conversion therapy, discrimination in regular day jobs & general treatment in society.

And on that, including all gay people, I think every person deserves grown up respect. But also that genitalia perhaps should define your public toilet, changing room, etc. And well, your sporting gender. Not which sex you prefer sexually, or like to dress as.

Are any non sporting transgender people actually kicking up a fuss because they want to see biologically uneven sports? Or are some politically hyper active do-gooders telling them they should be?