UK Politics & Brexit Discussion

[RandoEFC+]

14 minutes ago, Harvsky said:

Actually Rochdale was a Lib Dem constituency between 2005 and 2010. Labour only beat the Lib Dems by 2% in 2010 then went on to barnstorm in 2015 and 2017. Rochdale also had Lib Dem Cyril Smith as MP in the 80s.

The common UKIP used excuse that they can't penetrate Rochdale because of some rabid Labour loyalty does not look true.

A common trait of political losers is to externalise. To strip the voter of their agency. How could they possibly not vote for our morally superior position? There must be something wrong with them! They must be thick and brainwashed. It's never that the package that you're offering simply wasn't good enough to encapsulate a broad enough spectrum to win the most votes. Once you position your politics as right versus wrong you're on a path to deluding yourself in defeat. 

We are going to see this on speed tomorrow regardless of who wins.

Remind me Harv, was/is this your degree/career or are you just very well read on politics? Just curious.

[...Dan]

2 hours ago, Fairy In Boots said:

Lol the BBC has been 3 remain vs 1 leaver on its flagship political programme for 3 years now and your talk about unbiased is a lefty comedian from Lib Dem cousin fucker Bristol give your head a wobble. 

Yes it is Stan, some constituency’s it’s that ingrained that our politics has descended into tribal bs. You ever been in an ex mining village?

Also Rochdale was where Brown called a typical labour voter in that constituency a bigot and they still voted. 

Lol I’ve not read the sun or star or mirror is 20 years. Mail online I do see from time to time but it’s typically shite about Kardashian’s. 

I know about the creation of Israel and displacement of Palestinians, however I side with the Israelis because basically they’d be wiped out if they didn’t have the state as they have been in pretty much all of the Middle East now. And the fact a free Palestine would basically offer us fuck all, it would be about as useful as chocolate teapot. It’s just a vehicle for people to make themselves look like great humanitarians. Where’s the upset from the Labour Party against the ethnic cleansing in Burma? 

It’s basically a stick for socialist to beat Jews with because of the banking system nowadays let just be honest. 

What does a free Palestine offer us? Cheaper oranges? A few dates? 

Other countries don't exist to be useful to the UK...that's a bizarre way of thinking. Just because you can't fathom how people can care about people from another country, it doesn't mean they're faking it to "look like great humanitarians".

Also, why the random insult about Bristol? You know nothing about Bristol.

Edited December 12, 2019 by ...Dan

[Pyfish+]

Just wanted to break up the tension with a picture of this cutie as part of #DogsAtPollingStations.

As you were...

[Guest]

@Stan @Inverted @Dr. Gonzo @Mel81x @RandoEFC so what do you think we should do about brexit if the conservatives win? I'm not 100% sure but I kind of feel like if people really wanted another vote this would be the chance to get one because we know labour would give us another one. So if conservatives win perhaps remain should just admit defeat and make the best of what we can?

[RandoEFC+]

6 minutes ago, Gunnersauraus said:

@Stan @Inverted @Dr. Gonzo @Mel81x @RandoEFC so what do you think we should do about brexit if the conservatives win? I'm not 100% sure but I kind of feel like if people really wanted another vote this would be the chance to get one because we know labour would give us another one. So if conservatives win perhaps remain should just admit defeat and make the best of what we can?

The polls have shown almost exclusively for about 2 years that Remain is now the marginally more preferred option over Leave. The Conservatives have made it clear for a long time that Brexit is the hill they're willing to die on, not because of their fundamental beliefs necessarily but because that's just how the political landscape has fallen. If they get their majority they'll move forward with it so there's nothing 'we' can do.

Labour have been tied up by the fact that their following is quite split between Remain and Leave. Too many voters in each category to pick a side, so even though I think having another referendum and letting people have their final say when an actual "this is what Brexit will be" is laid in front of them, do you want this or do you want to stay in after all, is objectively the democratic thing to do, but even they only stumbled into that position because that was the optimum strategy through all of the sea changes.

Liberal Democrats went full on let's just revoke Article 50. Even as a Remainer, I think it's undemocratic and a dangerous precedent to cancel Brexit without a second referendum, and the majority of Remainers feel more strongly that that's the case than they feel desperate about stopping Brexit at all costs. I think leaving the EU is a terrible idea but ripping up democracy in that way leads us down a dark and dangerous path. This is why the Lib Dems have tanked in the election.

So what we will either get is a Conservative majority government who move forward with Brexit, or a Conservative minority government with support from another party, which seems incredibly unlikely because Johnson has already pretty much back-stabbed any of the parties who would have been willing to prop him up, or the Conservatives will fail to get a majority even if they have the most seats, and when Johnson fails to form a government, Corbyn gets to try, and if he can get the support of SNP, Green, Lib Dems to form a government we will get a second referendum. This could play out a few ways. The current Lib Dem leadership is adamantly against Corbyn so they may offer Labour a coalition on the condition that he steps aside and a more centrist replacement is found to lead the Labour Party, which opens a massive can of worms in itself as all of the votes cast for Corbyn's Labour are undermined. Alternatively, the smaller parties could make a deal to form a government with Labour for long enough to have the second referendum on the condition that either Corbyn steps down or there's yet another election as soon as that referendum was done. Basically, it will be a total mess and a nightmare. If the Tories fail to form a majority it's anybody's guess what happens next.

[Inverted]

35 minutes ago, Gunnersauraus said:

@Stan @Inverted @Dr. Gonzo @Mel81x @RandoEFC so what do you think we should do about brexit if the conservatives win? I'm not 100% sure but I kind of feel like if people really wanted another vote this would be the chance to get one because we know labour would give us another one. So if conservatives win perhaps remain should just admit defeat and make the best of what we can?

There is nothing more to do if the Tories win. Either moderate Tories will panic and take Johnson's pathetic deal, or we crash out eventually. 

Either way we'll look back at the horrors of the last 10 years with nostalgia. 

[Danny]

4 hours ago, Fairy In Boots said:

Lol the BBC has been 3 remain vs 1 leaver on its flagship political programme for 3 years now and your talk about unbiased is a lefty comedian from Lib Dem cousin fucker Bristol give your head a wobble. 

Yes it is Stan, some constituency’s it’s that ingrained that our politics has descended into tribal bs. You ever been in an ex mining village?

Also Rochdale was where Brown called a typical labour voter in that constituency a bigot and they still voted. 

Lol I’ve not read the sun or star or mirror is 20 years. Mail online I do see from time to time but it’s typically shite about Kardashian’s. 

I know about the creation of Israel and displacement of Palestinians, however I side with the Israelis because basically they’d be wiped out if they didn’t have the state as they have been in pretty much all of the Middle East now. And the fact a free Palestine would basically offer us fuck all, it would be about as useful as chocolate teapot. It’s just a vehicle for people to make themselves look like great humanitarians. Where’s the upset from the Labour Party against the ethnic cleansing in Burma? 

It’s basically a stick for socialist to beat Jews with because of the banking system nowadays let just be honest. 

What does a free Palestine offer us? Cheaper oranges? A few dates? 

I just said he is more partial than the BBC, not that he is partial. BBC have constantly scrutinised Corbyn to a level that Johnson and co haven’t had

[Inverted]

The point about organisational bias is that generates a biased effect regardless of the opinion of any individual. Institutions are shaped not just by personnel but also history, tradition, culture, and external pressure. 

Even if its personnel were mostly progressive in their personal beliefs, the fact that the BBC advantages the Conservatives regardless is exactly the nature of instutional bias. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

1 hour ago, Gunnersauraus said:

@Stan @Inverted @Dr. Gonzo @Mel81x @RandoEFC so what do you think we should do about brexit if the conservatives win? I'm not 100% sure but I kind of feel like if people really wanted another vote this would be the chance to get one because we know labour would give us another one. So if conservatives win perhaps remain should just admit defeat and make the best of what we can?

Save money so when the economy does tank you aren’t as fucked as the average Joe

[RandoEFC+]

The bottom line is that the anti-Semitism issue in the Labour Party, but not directly from Corbyn, has been used as a stick to beat Corbyn with more than bigoted comments that Johnson personally made himself about a whole variety of minorities and subsets of the population, from Muslim women to children of single mothers, so it's a bit more than "being a bit cheeky at times with the ladies" which in itself is a pretty typical and foul justification of the behaviour of dirty, rich old men that have never heard the word no in their lives, but I digress. Most of this is because more of the media is biased towards the Tories than towards Labour, though most sources need to be taken with a pinch of salt.

I don't think the BBC as an institution have been that untoward compared to most (hardly high praise though). Laura Kuenssberg as an individual has crossed the line many times and the BBC hasn't dealt with it. Come to think of it, this means that if Corbyn is personally responsible for the actions of every Labour Party member then maybe the entire BBC should be held responsible for the actions of a single employee, but I digress again.

It's definitely a problem though. Forget about Tory this, Corbyn that. If you look at it objectively, why are ITV and Channel 4 held to task about impartiality when the newspapers can print whatever they feel like? How is the BBC impartial when they employ Andrew Neil who is/was the editor of a newspaper that previously employed one of the current party leaders? It's nonsense, but it's a symptom of the fact that we, the public, overwhelmingly choose to listen to or read the material of the people that tell us what we already think, rather than search for the people who offer a balanced opinion from both sides and allow us to make up our own minds. By the simple concept of supply and demand, this creates a massive incentive for journalists and media to pick a side and pander to their supporters rather than try and educate anyone by laying out the pros and cons.

Sadly, if you look at other country's, you'll see pretty much the same thing to varying extents. It's probably been worse than other years in the UK during this election but you still see far worse in a lot of other nations.

[Honey Honey]

2 hours ago, RandoEFC said:

Remind me Harv, was/is this your degree/career or are you just very well read on politics? Just curious.

Work in Research. No direct connection to politics.

4 minutes ago, Inverted said:

The point about organisational bias is that generates a biased effect regardless of the opinion of any individual. Institutions are shaped not just by personnel but also history, tradition, culture, and external pressure. 

Even if its personnel were mostly progressive in their personal beliefs, the fact that the BBC advantages the Conservatives regardless is exactly the nature of instutional bias. 

Do you just mean quantified coverage or is something out there measuring positive effect?

[Fairy In Boots]

I’ll answer some of you later when I have time. 

Now though just remember you’ve voted to give this woman control of national defence. 

Yep odd shoes and on the wrong feet, has to have had a breakdown she’s thick but that’s blatantly Retàrded

 

Edited December 12, 2019 by Fairy In Boots

[DeadLinesman]

We need to change the auto correct. My bald head is getting abused far too much these days, and it doesn’t even know what it’s done wrong 

[Honey Honey]

13 minutes ago, Fairy In Boots said:

I’ll answer some of you later when I have time. 

Now though just remember you’ve voted to give this woman control of national defence. 

Yep odd shoes and on the wrong feet, has to have had a breakdown she’s thick but that’s blatantly Retàrded

 

If this is a symptom of something wrong it should be met with empathy and concern, not ridicule. 

Member of Parliament is just a job.

[Inverted]

31 minutes ago, Harvsky said:

Work in Research. No direct connection to politics.

Do you just mean quantified coverage or is something out there measuring positive effect?

Neither. Not sure how you could measure BBC reporting's effect when it is essentially imposed on every citizen. There is no control sample you could find.  

As for quantity, the BBC's focus on quantitative balance in the coverage is a large part of the problem. Quantitative analysis is essentially meaningless in terms of pure volume of stories.

Bias lies not only on treating like cases differently, but also in treating different cases in a like manner. 

[Stan]

41 minutes ago, Harvsky said:

If this is a symptom of something wrong it should be met with empathy and concern, not ridicule. 

Member of Parliament is just a job.

I'm pretty sure Fairy as well didn't like it when people got personal about Tory MPs  

[The Artful Dodger]

Hasn't that photo already been debunked?

Abbott is hated because of who and what she is, several politicians have made worse gaffes, been more dishonest etc. It's clear as day.

Edited December 12, 2019 by The Artful Dodger

[Stan]

Just now, The Artful Dodger said:

Hasn't that photo already been debunked?

Abbott is hated because of who she is, several politicians have made worse gaffes, been more dishonest etc. It's clear as day.

Because she's black.

[RandoEFC+]

Give me that sweet, sweet glimmer of false hope so I can hold on tight until the moment you pry it from my cold, dead hands.

[Stan]

4 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

 

Give me that sweet, sweet glimmer of false hope so I can hold on tight until the moment you pry it from my cold, dead hands.

This sounds very Everton .

Apparently Tories have been putting loads of anti-Labour leaflets in certain constituencies outside polling stations which is an illegal thing to do. 

[The Artful Dodger]

 

29 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

Give me that sweet, sweet glimmer of false hope so I can hold on tight until the moment you pry it from my cold, dead hands.

I still have basically zero hope but it is rather telling that the Conservative party are scared by a high turn out, they want people not to vote. This is pretty damning.

[IgnisExcubitor]

Don't know a lot about the election as a whole in detail, but I am intrigued reading reports here in India, how British Indians who traditionally vote for Labour are switching to Tories after Corbyn's recent attacks on our country and its government (which his party quickly distanced itself from). The attack on the Indian embassy by protest groups that included Labour ministers also didn't help. 

I know Labour panders to the large Pakistani Brits, so this is hardly surprising. 

Edited December 12, 2019 by IgnisExcubitor

[6666]

2 hours ago, Fairy In Boots said:

I’ll answer some of you later when I have time. 

Now though just remember you’ve voted to give this woman control of national defence. 

Yep odd shoes and on the wrong feet, has to have had a breakdown she’s thick but that’s blatantly Retàrded

 

Right wing voters falling for bullshit once again. This is new.

Interesting that shoe wearing policy somehow became an important issue when talking about which party to vote for... At least it's a change from the bigotry and the envy towards the needy receiving help.

[6666]

5 minutes ago, IgnisExcubitor said:

Don't know a lot about the election as a whole in detail, but I am intrigued reading reports here in India, how British Indians who traditionally vote for Labour are flipping to Tories after Corbyn's recent attacks our country and its government. The attack on the Indian embassy by protest groups that included Labour ministers also didn't help. 

I know Labour panders to the large Pakistani Brits, so this is hardly surprising. 

I can't see these "reports" being totally accurate or where they're even claiming to get their information from but why would Indians who aren't fascists be upset about any fascist government being criticised..? It'd be like people who aren't Tory supporters getting upset about Bernie Sanders calling Boris Johnson a mad, racist cunt. Wouldn't happen.

The right wing press really do love to peddle their bullshit. Whatever country.

Edited December 12, 2019 by 6666

[IgnisExcubitor]

10 minutes ago, 6666 said:

I can't see these "reports" being totally accurate or where they're even claiming to get their information from but why would Indians who aren't fascists be upset about any fascist government being criticised..? It'd be like people who aren't Tory supIndians who aren't fascists be upset about any fascist government being criticised..? It'd be like people who aren't Toryporters getting upset about Bernie Sanders calling Boris Johnson a mad, racist cunt. Wouldn't happen.

The right wing press really do love to peddle their bullshit. Whatever country.

Don't want to derail this thread but that's a boring, done to death, lazy line of debate. Just because you don't like something doesn't make them fascists. Or because Guardian says so. 

There is also a lot of anger regarding violent protests that targeted Indian embassy twice. Protests that included Labour politicians.

Edited December 12, 2019 by IgnisExcubitor