North Korea

[Guest Cannabis]

Land of the free.

Let's face it, there's going to be one hell of a kick-off in and around North Korea soon so we might aswell get a thread going before King Jong-Chubbs hits the nuke button and kills us all. At the moment China have told the US and Koreans to calm down as war hangs by a thread, what are your thoughts on the absolute weapon that is Kim Jong-Un and his people?

Quote

China has urged the US and

 North Korea to step back from the brink of a potentially catastrophic conflict after Pyongyang warned it would not “keep its arms crossed” in the event of a pre-emptive strike.

Speaking in Beijing on Friday, the Chinese foreign minister, Wang Yi, told reporters the region faced a “precarious situation” in which “one has the feeling that a conflict could break out at any moment”. He made his plea before an anticipated sixth North Korean nuclear test on Saturday to mark the birth of the country’s founder, Kim Il-sung.

“We call on all parties to refrain from provoking and threatening each other, whether in words or actions, and not to let the situation get to an irreversible and unmanageable stage,” Wang said, according to Xinhua, China’s official news agency.

“If a war occurs, the result is a situation in which everybody loses and there can be no winner. It is not the one who espouses harsher rhetoric or raises a bigger fist that will win.”

[Spike]

Pyongyang is a beautiful city.

[El Profesor]

I have no idea if this scenario is remotely probable but in my opinion a military coup backed by China to overthrow Kim Jong-Un and put a saner and more stable leader at the helm of North Korea would be a decent outcome. A war involving the United States in the backyard of China and Russia is really scary. 

[Berserker]

2 hours ago, El_Loco said:

I have no idea if this scenario is remotely probable but in my opinion a military coup backed by China to overthrow Kim Jong-Un and put a saner and more stable leader at the helm of North Korea would be a decent outcome. A war involving the United States in the backyard of China and Russia is really scary. 

Don't worry, we live in the neutral paradise Ricardinho. It's likely the whole world will be wiped out before we are.

I think it's pathetic how the US and it's friends are allowed to have nuclear weapons but then they want to invade every other country that does using that as an excuse like they did with Iraq to probably steal their resources.

[El Profesor]

Just now, Berserker said:

Don't worry, we live in the Neutral paradise Ricardinho. It's likely the whole world will be wiped out because we are.

I think it's pathetic how the US and it's friends are allowed to have nuclear weapons but then they want to invade every other country that does using that as an excuse like they did with Iraq to probably steal their resources.

 I for one think we south americans should always be neutral and sell food and commodities to all sides. Fuck the gringos. 😂

[Honey Honey]

The window for US action is closing with every day that China gets stronger. Everyone involved knows it.

[SirBalon]

Seeing as he can't get his nuclear missiles to go further than his back garden, I don't think anyone outside that immediate region should worry.  Although obviously Japan, Republic of Korea and co must be nervous.  Then again this madman in charge of North Korea never has actually been in a war until now, has he?

[Fairy In Boots]

8 hours ago, HoneyNUFC said:

The window for US action is closing with every day that China gets stronger. Everyone involved knows it.

Which is all the more surprising that the Chinese haven't acted previously. A united Korea and potential American military bases directly on there border is probably the main reason the Chinese still back the shower, it's not good for them. Chinese inaction over the weapons program will have handed the Yanks a perfect opportunity. 

[nudge]

It's just dick measuring contest once again, honestly doubt anything will come out of it. 

As for China, they have gone a much more intelligent route and have been expanding their sphere of influence with money instead of bullish threats. They have been buying their way in Southeast Asia by providing aid and making strategic investments in most of ASEAN countries, and their influence in the Pacific region and Asia in general is growing day by day; if it continues at the same rate, they will dominate the region soon anyway.

[Fairy In Boots]

That's exactly why a unified Korea is a problem for them as it's a potential rival. China have been growing their influence heavily in Africa to.  That's why although I take the point about America being global bully's, the alternative is just some other fucker doing it.  As we in the west share a lot of cultural similarities, it's better the devil we know

[Panflute]

How many times has there been an impending war between North Korea and the US over the past decades? There'll be sabre-rattling but a full-blown war would come at a huge cost as this wouldn't be just as simple as just bombing some scruffy terrorists out of their caves.

[Honey Honey]

Seoul would be gone.

[God is Haaland]

1-2-3-4

Let's start a world war!

[El Profesor]

5 hours ago, HoneyNUFC said:

Seoul would be gone.

Yes. It would be ugly. Saw this article retweeted on Twitter and O think it describes a very realistic scenario: https://www.realcleardefense.com/articles/2017/04/25/thunder_run_to_seoul_assessing_north_koreas_war_plan_111241.html

[Fairy In Boots]

On 25/04/2017 at 7:26 PM, HoneyNUFC said:

Seoul would be gone.

I doubt Kim Jong Un ever had one in the first place 

[RandoEFC+]

Such an idiotic country. How in this day and age a man can establish a dictatorship in a developed country is an absolute wonder. What do they actually hope to gain from all this bollocks?

[Dr. Gonzo]

Haven't North Korea always been posturing like this to get aid for "their starving people" which is then diverted promptly to feed the North Korean military (because they need to guard the labour camps that subject the actual starving people to terrible conditions)? I suppose it's a bit different now as they've found they can make dirty bombs with nuclear waste, which is particularly worrying for South Korea and Japan.

The situation is a bit tricky though, as they've been propped up by Russia and China, mostly China, for decades. And for those countries, it's not that bad of a deal - they rent forced labourers for some nice cheap and easy workers. And for North Korea... it's a good thing if you're part of the ruling family. But the North Korean military also has an incredible amount of artillery aimed right at Seoul - which is not only the capital, but also by far and away the most populated part of South Korea. If North Korea is ever invaded, I imagine North Korea's primary military strategy will be to hit Seoul with everything they've got - knowing they will lose any war, but they will be able to take a lot of human life with them.

On ‎4‎/‎15‎/‎2017 at 1:36 AM, Fairy In Boots said:

That's exactly why a unified Korea is a problem for them as it's a potential rival. China have been growing their influence heavily in Africa to.  That's why although I take the point about America being global bully's, the alternative is just some other fucker doing it.  As we in the west share a lot of cultural similarities, it's better the devil we know

A lot of South Koreans are against a unified Korea, because they think it would be an incredibly costly endeavour for them. There's so much they'd have to deal with. Eradicating the brainwashing and propaganda that's been going on there since the 1950s would be a huge task. The whole country would need to have massive infrastructure investment. And then there's the whole issue of providing jobs to the people who live in North Korea. It's not quite the same as reunifying Germany after the fall of the Berlin wall. While China would likely gain a rival in the long term, chances are South Korea's potential to compete with China in the short term would be massively impacted as they'd try to successfully reunite the North with the "real world" so to speak. It's about 1/3 of South Korea that opposes unification, and even among those who support unification... most South Koreans believe that it would negatively impact their economy. And I don't think they're wrong, for the reasons I listed above. But most people in South Korea who support unification do so for moral, humanitarian, and family reasons, rather than for the economic reasons.

Also you're damn right about it's better America being the global bully than China. Honestly, it would be much more ideal if WE were still the global bullies... although it's a bit controversial to pine for the days of imperialism... I'd argue that overt imperialism is better than the subversive economic imperialism that goes on now - at least it's more fucking honest. It's obviously better if you (or an ally like America) is the global leader, than being pushed around by someone that doesn't have the same cultural values as you. Particularly from the UK's point of view, we're not their biggest consumer like America... so we're less important to them than a whole host of other countries. As you say, it's better the devil you know.

[Panflute]

I've been talking about this a lot to Asians and it's interesting to see that their perspective differs greatly from how the situation is depicted in the West. It's too much to talk about here, but some of the more interesting things they've pointed out is how Korean reunification is the key to getting the Americans out of the region, which is why it won't likely happen as long as they are calling the shots. Another thing is that support for the North is stronger than it may seem, as the lower classes in South Korea feel cheated by their government and apparently there are a lot of subversive elements and groups in South Korea who would switch sides the moment a conflict would erupt. Another interesting thing is that most of the people I've talked to (Japanese, Chinese, Vietnamese, and American nationals with said backgrounds), were both nationalists and sympathised with or outright supported the North.

[6666]

North Korea don't influence enough around them for anyone to really give a shit. If they did, the US would've already replaced this dictator that's against them with a dictator that does what they say.

[Inverted]

I think North Korea is the only state that you can't imagine liberalising within this or the next generation. 

China isn't gong to get rid of the CPC any time soon, but there is still scope at the top levels of government for different ideas to bounce around. Deng's faction was able to take them from Maoism to extremely predatory capitalism, so it's plausible that some reformist faction could come in and relax the social controls. 

Iran is stuck under the clergy even with some reformist figures getting in and around power, but there's enough latent free conscience amongst the population to allow for the possibility that one day the younger generation there could get rid of the theocracy. The state's real control isn't that strong, they're reliant on the moral support of the generation that's been through the revolution and the Iraqi invasion. 

North Korea, however has neither of those things. The top levels of government are still as hostile to intellectual challenge and internal debate as the Politburo was at Stalin's most paranoid. On top of that, the capacity of the population to even grasp the reality of their situation is probably destroyed. 

Theres no scope for change: not from the top down like in China, nor from the ground up like Iran. 

[Toinho]

Would anyone visit North Korea? I would.

[Spike]

23 minutes ago, Anton said:

Would anyone visit North Korea? I would.

Yes and despite what that old Vice doco says, it is apparently quite easy.

[Danny]

I can't see a war breaking out, it would be massively costly to the US, massively costly to China, plus whoever else gets involved and the outcome would either mean that China has the US on their border or the US lose influence in South Korea.

[Honey Honey]

The Americans will go to war in a heartbeat if the South Korean's ask them to imo.

[Dr. Gonzo]

On ‎7‎/‎27‎/‎2017 at 8:12 PM, Anton said:

Would anyone visit North Korea? I would.

I've thought about it, but I'd also be weary of shit happening like that one US student who was taken prisoner and then somehow ended up in a coma and died. It would be crap to be used as anti-Western propaganda by a silly dictatorship for your last few months of life.