Vaccine Debate

[Fairy In Boots]

Just going to state I’m against vacation of under 18’s I see it as too much state interference 

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, Fairy In Boots said:

Just going to state I’m against vacation of under 18’s I see it as too much state interference 

Does that mean making them wear seatbelts is wrong to??

[Fairy In Boots]

1 hour ago, Gunnersauraus said:

Does that mean making them wear seatbelts is wrong to??

Not quite sure how that equates to seatbelts to be honest 

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Fairy In Boots said:

Not quite sure how that equates to seatbelts to be honest 

Well children have to wear seatbelts. I wasn't around when it became law but I know there were a lot of people who refused to wear them because they said weren't going to be told what to do. They also tried to manipulate stats to show they were unsafe and no doubt would not let their children wear them 

I dont see how they could force under 18s to have them anyway. The vaccine passports are basically saying that people cant go to large events etc without a vaccine. It's not for a specific age so under 18s would come under that.

If you mean you are against vaccinations of under 18s in general I don't really understand why. Giving them the option seems like common sense 

[Tommy]

[Bluewolf]

Our place has recently announced that it would not pay sick pay for anyone who is off with Covid if they have not been double jabbed.. Now personally I think that's up to the individual if they want to be jabbed or not and I appreciate that the business needs to try and do the right thing to protect itself and staff but not keen on the way businesses are forcing the issue on people.. 

We still have all of our Covid precautions in place, we still have to wear face masks ( unless you work in the office where they have exempted  themselves  ) and we still test every individual on site every 4 days so it's not as though the company are not going above and beyond current requirements.. 

[RandoEFC+]

I do understand the personal choice angle when you aren't dealing with a highly infectious disease. I get that some people are sceptical because of misinformation and that largely isn't their fault, but the fact remains, as it has throughout the pandemic, that if you do less to protect yourself against this virus, you're not just making a personal choice about your own health, you're making a choice to increase the risk to anyone else you have contact with. Sure, the probabilities are quite small that a combination of these events happen - unvaccinated person catches Covid-19, transmits it to a vaccinated person, that person gets seriously ill and/or dies (or subsequently passes it on to another person who dies, etc., etc.) but it only needs to happen once for an avoidable loss of human life to occur because of someone else's "personal choice". I'm always of the mindset that people should operate as a community and when there's something going around that threatens all of us, everyone should look past their own view of whether or not they want to risk it themselves and do their bit to build a shield for the community.

That said, I'm also not keen on workplaces making it mandatory to get vaccinated or potentially discriminating against people who haven't had the vaccine. It just doesn't feel to me like the right thing to do, and that the solution should always be to convince them with facts and science, the carrot, not the stick. That doesn't mean I have any sympathy for the actual people who have opted not to be vaccinated for spurious reasons either though. Everyone should get the jab.

[SchalkeUK]

Over the years many of us older members have had to do things with which we disagreed, but we had no choice - National Service, Injections as kids, travel bans, V forms etc etc.

The bodies who cry out against interference with 'rights' are a problem.  I do not have any 'rights' and neither does anyone else.  What we have are privileges which we are able to use because of our lifestyle and where we live - others in the world are not so fortunate and we must never stop trying to get them to a situation where are privileges as available to them too!  Whenever Unions scream about rights they are simply being totally selfish and never consider those who are not members and as they have no electoral role they should 'shut up' and stop upsetting the system for the rest of us - I knew Arthur very well in the 70's and 80's and if honesty is applied,  his attitude killed the Mines and Miners - not Margaret - she just let him get on with it and when his 'scabs' were not allowed into the pits to keep them safe, they became death traps and had to close - good on ya Arthur - brilliant plan like those of Baldrick. If people are scared of the vaccinations, that is their choice, but refusing to have them simply puts others - family members, friends et al at greater risk - again totally selfish.  our privileges allow them to make that choice, but if I want to see my daughter in the US I can't go because their situation is being made worse by millions of people refusing to take care of themselves and their loved ones.  I need a passport to go there anyway and if I don't have one I cant go!  I am fully aware of the problems which might be caused by the'Passport' idea, but everytime I travel to the Veltins I have to line up and be checked and searched so why not have to prove I am also safe?  If I don't want it that's my choice, but I then have no choice in respect of going to the game - my decision.  Sorry to go on in this way, but now well into my eighties I despair sometimes about the lack of foresight some younger folk seem to have.  these decisions will hardly affect my future - however much more I have, but it's my daughters' and your kids futures we are messing with - they deserve better from us!

 

[Bluewolf]

48 minutes ago, RandoEFC said:

I do understand the personal choice angle when you aren't dealing with a highly infectious disease. I get that some people are sceptical because of misinformation and that largely isn't their fault, but the fact remains, as it has throughout the pandemic, that if you do less to protect yourself against this virus, you're not just making a personal choice about your own health, you're making a choice to increase the risk to anyone else you have contact with. Sure, the probabilities are quite small that a combination of these events happen - unvaccinated person catches Covid-19, transmits it to a vaccinated person, that person gets seriously ill and/or dies (or subsequently passes it on to another person who dies, etc., etc.) but it only needs to happen once for an avoidable loss of human life to occur because of someone else's "personal choice". I'm always of the mindset that people should operate as a community and when there's something going around that threatens all of us, everyone should look past their own view of whether or not they want to risk it themselves and do their bit to build a shield for the community.

That said, I'm also not keen on workplaces making it mandatory to get vaccinated or potentially discriminating against people who haven't had the vaccine. It just doesn't feel to me like the right thing to do, and that the solution should always be to convince them with facts and science, the carrot, not the stick. That doesn't mean I have any sympathy for the actual people who have opted not to be vaccinated for spurious reasons either though. Everyone should get the jab.

 

5 minutes ago, SchalkeUK said:

Over the years many of us older members have had to do things with which we disagreed, but we had no choice - National Service, Injections as kids, travel bans, V forms etc etc.

The bodies who cry out against interference with 'rights' are a problem.  I do not have any 'rights' and neither does anyone else.  What we have are privileges which we are able to use because of our lifestyle and where we live - others in the world are not so fortunate and we must never stop trying to get them to a situation where are privileges as available to them too!  Whenever Unions scream about rights they are simply being totally selfish and never consider those who are not members and as they have no electoral role they should 'shut up' and stop upsetting the system for the rest of us - I knew Arthur very well in the 70's and 80's and if honesty is applied,  his attitude killed the Mines and Miners - not Margaret - she just let him get on with it and when his 'scabs' were not allowed into the pits to keep them safe, they became death traps and had to close - good on ya Arthur - brilliant plan like those of Baldrick. If people are scared of the vaccinations, that is their choice, but refusing to have them simply puts others - family members, friends et al at greater risk - again totally selfish.  our privileges allow them to make that choice, but if I want to see my daughter in the US I can't go because their situation is being made worse by millions of people refusing to take care of themselves and their loved ones.  I need a passport to go there anyway and if I don't have one I cant go!  I am fully aware of the problems which might be caused by the'Passport' idea, but everytime I travel to the Veltins I have to line up and be checked and searched so why not have to prove I am also safe?  If I don't want it that's my choice, but I then have no choice in respect of going to the game - my decision.  Sorry to go on in this way, but now well into my eighties I despair sometimes about the lack of foresight some younger folk seem to have.  these decisions will hardly affect my future - however much more I have, but it's my daughters' and your kids futures we are messing with - they deserve better from us!

 

I totally agree with the community effort and being a responsible person and along with the company's right to protect itself, However we still have a number of staff that may have only received one of their two jabs and it feels like they will be punished if they should fall foul of it in the meantime and that does not feel right to me.. I have no time for people that clearly don't care or don't make an effort and for those people I have no sympathy whatsoever and yes their actions do impact others and that's where I would draw the line and if we had staff like that they wouldn't be allowed on site so in my eyes they are complying with the requests of the company without fuss and for that I feel they should be supported in the event something goes wrong.. That's just my opinion, I still see so many people now ignoring polite requests to wear masks in shops which is why I am still wearing mine in crowded areas/shops etc regardless as i don't want to be putting my self at any risk if it can be avoided.

I was recently off and had to isolate at the company's request because my mate got it somehow and we had been working together most of the day before he started getting the symptoms and have been paid for that and he is very very careful due to his Health and even wears a mask in the office even though he doesn't need to, I consider him to be a very sensible person in that regard, he has a young son and needs to be careful for his and their sakes but if he can still get it even though he has taken all the right precautions would it be fair to punish him?? 

I just never have liked nor never will like the "Do it or else" scenarios being inflicted on people 

[Cicero]

On 05/09/2021 at 06:08, Tommy said:

This is just beautiful. 

Should've added a 5th labeled "Coronavirus entering the body"

[Honey Honey]

On 04/09/2021 at 21:44, Fairy In Boots said:

Just going to state I’m against vacation of under 18’s I see it as too much state interference 

Hard to disagree. There's nothing worse than going on vacation during half term. Those fixed dates implemented by the state make every hotel, plane and resort fill with unruly under 18s. I think you'll agree that we should put sedatives in their vaccines.

[Bluewolf]

12 minutes ago, The Premier Steve's said:

Hard to disagree. There's nothing worse than going on vacation during half term. Those fixed dates implemented by the state make every hotel, plane and resort fill with unruly under 18s. I think you'll agree that we should put sedatives in their vaccines.

I think we should send them away during the holidays like summer camp in America except we could send ours to Scotland on long hiking weeks or an island somewhere where only the strongest swimmers will escape... 

[Dr. Gonzo]

6 hours ago, RandoEFC said:

I do understand the personal choice angle when you aren't dealing with a highly infectious disease. I get that some people are sceptical because of misinformation and that largely isn't their fault, but the fact remains, as it has throughout the pandemic, that if you do less to protect yourself against this virus, you're not just making a personal choice about your own health, you're making a choice to increase the risk to anyone else you have contact with. Sure, the probabilities are quite small that a combination of these events happen - unvaccinated person catches Covid-19, transmits it to a vaccinated person, that person gets seriously ill and/or dies (or subsequently passes it on to another person who dies, etc., etc.) but it only needs to happen once for an avoidable loss of human life to occur because of someone else's "personal choice". I'm always of the mindset that people should operate as a community and when there's something going around that threatens all of us, everyone should look past their own view of whether or not they want to risk it themselves and do their bit to build a shield for the community.

That said, I'm also not keen on workplaces making it mandatory to get vaccinated or potentially discriminating against people who haven't had the vaccine. It just doesn't feel to me like the right thing to do, and that the solution should always be to convince them with facts and science, the carrot, not the stick. That doesn't mean I have any sympathy for the actual people who have opted not to be vaccinated for spurious reasons either though. Everyone should get the jab.

I agree with this. I don't buy the "personal choice" argument. You might be making a personal choice to be more at risk of spreading the disease, but anyone you spread it to because you weren't vaccinated didn't make the personal choice of getting it. And I'm not sure when other people's personal choices interfere with other people's personal choices... especially on something like this where we're talking about a pandemic where people have died... the same rights really apply.

At the same time, I also agree with you that employers taking a harsh stance on people willing to get vaccinated is maybe not the best approach to get employees vaccinated. I understand that loads of people are annoyed with people against the jabs, I am too, but I don't think taking such a hard line with them is necessarily useful in getting them to get the jab.

[Cicero]

22 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I agree with this. I don't buy the "personal choice" argument. You might be making a personal choice to be more at risk of spreading the disease, but anyone you spread it to because you weren't vaccinated didn't make the personal choice of getting it. And I'm not sure when other people's personal choices interfere with other people's personal choices... especially on something like this where we're talking about a pandemic where people have died... the same rights really apply.

At the same time, I also agree with you that employers taking a harsh stance on people willing to get vaccinated is maybe not the best approach to get employees vaccinated. I understand that loads of people are annoyed with people against the jabs, I am too, but I don't think taking such a hard line with them is necessarily useful in getting them to get the jab.

That entirely depends if that said individual got vaccinated themselves. The Covid Vaccine is about 70% effective against the Delta Variant. 

When you look at the statistics, all the numbers suggest those that are vaccinated continue to be vastly protected against both the virus and the variant. The issue is that Hospitals are now flooded with ICU beds for those that are not vaccinated, which forces countries to continue enforcing mask mandates/isolations/travel bans. 

Now there is an MU Variant, so for the life of me I don't understand how we can continue without making the vaccine mandatory. Which I think will happen. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

7 minutes ago, Cicero said:

That entirely depends if that said individual got vaccinated themselves. The Covid Vaccine is about 70% effective against the Delta Variant. 

When you look at the statistics, all the numbers suggest those that are vaccinated continue to be vastly protected against both the virus and the variant. The issue is that Hospitals are now flooded with ICU beds for those that are not vaccinated, which forces countries to continue enforcing mask mandates/isolations/travel bans. 

Now there is an MU Variant, so for the life of me I don't understand how we can continue without making the vaccine mandatory. Which I think will happen. 

Yeah but there's people who've been vaccinated that can carry the virus to people who can't get vaccinated for a variety of reasons - I especially sympathise with those who are allergic to whatever the fuck is in the vaccine and want to get the vaccine, but can't.

So far the vaccine seems safe to most people out there, only an overwhelming minority of people who've received the vaccine report negative reactions, and it seems effective. It seems a no brainer for people to get it, not just for themselves but for the people they interact with on a day to day basis.

[Waylander]

For me most getting the virus are those with toxin build ups and not eating healthily.

I read something on YouTube called Mass Psychosis by Carl Jung

An epidemic of madness and it occurs when a large portion of society loses touch with reality and descends into delusions, examples Spanish Inquisitions and totalitarian regimes of 20th century.

Media tells us that the virus makes people unwell and some need hospital treatment and dies. What percentage die?

If 1% 650,000 yet how many will be dying with the virus rather than because of the virus,

So because less than one percent of people might die do we need all people to vaccinated to be safe.

Now one of the arguments is that some actually pick up the virus after being vaccinated... that must be a worry.

If one is double vaccinated why would you worry about the unvaccinated, you're safe or is this the big delusion,
You have just bought into that idea because of peer pressure (aka govt/media pressure).

Very interesting YouTube, not especially about health more about Mass Psychosis concept and how it frightens people into conformity.

https://youtu.be/09maaUaRT4M
 

 

 

 

[Devil-Dick Willie]

Who would win? 

Thousands of doctors and scientists, with billions in funding, from nations worldwide, who regularly update best practice.

or

A bald roidy boi from manchester?

[Spike]

2 hours ago, Devil-Dick Willie said:

Who would win? 

Thousands of doctors and scientists, with billions in funding, from nations worldwide, who regularly update best practice.

or

A bald roidy boi from manchester?

If one fears vaccines, one should fear

antibiotics, painkillers, hormones, over the counter cold and flu medicine, anti-seizure, yadda yadda. When did everyone become a Christian Scientist and started praying away illness? People will shit themselves to death with ivermectine instead of taking a vaccine.

Smash fifty pints on the weekend and put the liver and kidney through the stringer, take a mad dash of pre-workout and supplements, but a vaccine is man made rubbish.

[Viva la FCB+]

All I know is the US is fucked. When you have a large amount of idiots tripping over themselves to take horse worm medication that even the company that makes it releases a statement saying stop taking it for Covid 19 there is no hope. The most ironic part is being anti establishment and big pharmacy...Merck is one of the biggest 4 pharmaceutical companies in the US. Dont worry though youll never learn something if you firlmy bury your head in the sand and follow idiots like Joe Rogan and the retrumplicans. 

• No scientific basis for a potential therapeutic effect against COVID-19 from pre-clinical studies; 
• No meaningful evidence for clinical activity or clinical efficacy in patients with COVID-19 disease, and; 
• A concerning lack of safety data in the majority of studies.

 

[DeadLinesman]

On 09/09/2021 at 11:30, Bluewolf said:

Our place has recently announced that it would not pay sick pay for anyone who is off with Covid if they have not been double jabbed.. Now personally I think that's up to the individual if they want to be jabbed or not and I appreciate that the business needs to try and do the right thing to protect itself and staff but not keen on the way businesses are forcing the issue on people.. 

We still have all of our Covid precautions in place, we still have to wear face masks ( unless you work in the office where they have exempted  themselves  ) and we still test every individual on site every 4 days so it's not as though the company are not going above and beyond current requirements.. 

Surely entirely unenforceable? Do they not pay sick pay for the flu? Because there’s a jab for that as well. What about smokers that get cancer? Fatties with diabetes? Just don’t think that would hold water in a court.  

[Batard]

37 minutes ago, DeadLinesman said:

Surely entirely unenforceable? Do they not pay sick pay for the flu? Because there’s a jab for that as well. What about smokers that get cancer? Fatties with diabetes? Just don’t think that would hold water in a court.  

https://www.gov.uk/statutory-sick-pay

They can't enforce it, SSP includes COVID. So they be breaking the law if they do not. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

19 hours ago, Waylander said:

If one is double vaccinated why would you worry about the unvaccinated, you're safe or is this the big delusion,
You have just bought into that idea because of peer pressure (aka govt/media pressure).

Doesn't that not take into account the fact that viruses mutate pretty rapidly? So while vaccinated people are currently more likely to be safe from the delta and not face serious hospitalisation... they can still get the virus, which can then mutate and potentially become vaccine resistant.

I think the reason so many people want more people to get vaccinated is because slowing and stopping the spread (which the vaccines do) significantly reduces the risk of mutation and that significantly reduces a vaccine resistant variant.

Chances are covid will be endemic, so it'll always exist we'll just have "tolerable" rates of infection with it... so the big challenge for the world is how to contain the mutations and different variants.

And honestly when so much of the developed world has so many people refusing to get vaccinated, maybe the developing world... where things like "staying at home" or "socially distancing" are a luxury and the access to vaccines is much lower, should be getting some of the supply of the world's vaccines.

Because if this many people don't want to be vaccinated in one part of the world, but so many in other parts of the world are desperate for the vaccine... and it's a global pandemic... it may be the best thing that can be done to slow the spread and the risk of mutation.

[Bluewolf]

1 hour ago, DeadLinesman said:

Surely entirely unenforceable? Do they not pay sick pay for the flu? Because there’s a jab for that as well. What about smokers that get cancer? Fatties with diabetes? Just don’t think that would hold water in a court.  

Very good point mate... 

You say it's unenforceable however company's are being given carte blanche on keeping all the Covid restrictions in place if they wish like they are doing at our place ( social distancing/masks etc ) even though nearly all restrictions have been dropped elsewhere for example so just what is acceptable/enforceable and what's not remains to be seen... 

[Bluewolf]

39 minutes ago, Batard said:

https://www.gov.uk/statutory-sick-pay

They can't enforce it, SSP includes COVID. So they be breaking the law if they do not. 

This is not about SSP that would be paid no problem as per usual. This is about the company not wanting to pay it's normal 10 days per year, If I was to get it for example and had no other sickness this year I should be entitled to full pay for a period of up to 10 days before SSP kicks in, the company are saying they don't want to pay that full entitlement which means ( if they go ahead with it ) that you would be claiming SSP from the off which is about what £33 a day or something daft like that?? 

So if I had one jab and followed all the rules on site without complaint including social distancing/masks and the weekly testing we carry out I would be pretty fucked off if I got it and they said we are not paying you.. 

[Batard]

2 hours ago, Bluewolf said:

This is not about SSP that would be paid no problem as per usual. This is about the company not wanting to pay it's normal 10 days per year, If I was to get it for example and had no other sickness this year I should be entitled to full pay for a period of up to 10 days before SSP kicks in, the company are saying they don't want to pay that full entitlement which means ( if they go ahead with it ) that you would be claiming SSP from the off which is about what £33 a day or something daft like that?? 

So if I had one jab and followed all the rules on site without complaint including social distancing/masks and the weekly testing we carry out I would be pretty fucked off if I got it and they said we are not paying you.. 

Well, this is much murkier waters because a company isn't obliged to offer sick pay beyond SSP as far as the law is concerned (although I would need to double check on that).