Manager Loyalty in Football

[Harry]

Good example of loyalty...

 

[Stan]

2 hours ago, SirBalon said:

Listen ruck sack! Go fuck with someone else before I ruin you and you end up tripping-up over the excessively stupid amount of letters in your name. Now, toddle on young man.

Too far, sir. Think you need to reign that in or retract that, personally. 

[carefreeluke]

 

 

 

1

16 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I can understand if some Chelsea fans feel betrayed by him - he's going to another London club that's directly competing for a CL spot with them... and I suppose they're something of rivals (although I just learned that yesterday - do all of the London clubs hate each other? Granted, I can understand all of the London clubs hating Chelsea/Arsenal tbh - being the "big" clubs). But the human element to Mourinho's decision to take the Spurs job outweighs the fan consideration, imo.

It's a job he loves in a city he loves (or at least enjoys living in). If it were any career other than football, nobody would bat an eyelid at him taking a job he loves in a place he'd want to live. And yeah, I get that because it is football it does have that supporter element of tribalism and loyalty and passions running high. But he's still a person and it's still his professional career, so of course he's going to look at it from the perspective of someone taking a job.

As for London rivalries. Chelsea's biggest rivalries are Spurs, Arsenal and West Ham. The local ones for Chelsea are Fulham, Brentford, or QPR. Fulham hate Chelsea in principle but I know a lot of season ticket holders at Fulham (some being very good mates) who say they hate Tottenham the most and some have even been to Chelsea away games. Chelsea don't really care too much about Fulham, most will probably admit they even like to see Fulham do well. Of course, when the two teams play, there's a bit of tension but that comes more from the Fulham side and the fact that it's an opponent and there are 3 points at stake. For Chelsea, the biggest rivalry in West London would be QPR and the rivalry escalated the last time QPR played Premier League football because of what happened with Anton Ferdinand. Looking at West London from a Chelsea perspective, Chelsea have spent too long playing in different leagues for the rivalries to develop too much but the biggest ones would probably be Chelsea / QPR and Fulham / QPR.

In general, though, most London teams hate each other. Chelsea's biggest will always be Tottenham, then Arsenal. From a personal perspective, it's probably Arsenal.

@Danny @Bluewolf @The Liquidator @The Palace Fan

[Tommy]

2 hours ago, SirBalon said:

No, you must stop being ridiculously silly (have no idea what to call you, your name is incomprehensible and too long)... You attacked Johan Cruyff because of some stupid notion you thought would entertain by stimulating that brain cell that's placed all of its iq on his nick regarding international club trophies. You were then found wanting (not surprising) by not knowing what he'd won at all and then decided to disregard domestic football.

But with you it didn't stop there....

Seeing as you made a voluntary statement, I then cited the perennial international loser in the club football scene and you go and make another error of judgment (I'm beginning to think "judgment" and self awareness isn't your forte) by talking about people that "changed the game" while leaving a trail on the argument regarding one of the most important individuals in football history where this particular debate would be in question.

Listen ruck sack! Go fuck with someone else before I ruin you and you end up tripping-up over the excessively stupid amount of letters in your name. Now, toddle on young man.

Holy shit. Take a deep breath or five and read that again. Maybe you'll realize how rude, entitled and condescending that sounded. If you don't see that, I'm afraid interacting with others on a platform like this is not for you. 

[Mel81x+]

2 hours ago, Harry said:

Good example of loyalty...

 

Never seen him referred to as 'Alex' Del Piero but maybe I haven't really seen it used as much. 

[Danny]

1 hour ago, carefreeluke said:

As for London rivalries. Chelsea's biggest rivalries are Spurs, Arsenal and West Ham. The local ones for Chelsea are Fulham, Brentford, or QPR. Fulham hate Chelsea in principle but I know a lot of season ticket holders at Fulham (some being very good mates) who say they hate Tottenham the most and some have even been to Chelsea away games. Chelsea don't really care too much about Fulham, most will probably admit they even like to see Fulham do well. Of course, when the two teams play, there's a bit of tension but that comes more from the Fulham side and the fact that it's an opponent and there are 3 points at stake. For Chelsea, the biggest rivalry in West London would be QPR and the rivalry escalated the last time QPR played Premier League football because of what happened with Anton Ferdinand. Looking at West London from a Chelsea perspective, Chelsea have spent too long playing in different leagues for the rivalries to develop too much but the biggest ones would probably be Chelsea / QPR and Fulham / QPR.

In general, though, most London teams hate each other. Chelsea's biggest will always be Tottenham, then Arsenal. From a personal perspective, it's probably Arsenal.

@Danny @Bluewolf @The Liquidator @The Palace Fan

Yeah QPR are definitely Chelsea’s biggest local derby. QPR are a working class club whereas Fulham’s support is known for its Tarquinns and Ruperts. Fulham probably believe they’re the second biggest club in west London and that’s probably what makes Brentford and QPR prefer Fulham over eachother (though a lot of old school Brentford would watch QPR go out of business with a smile on their face) because the reality is all three are small clubs and similar stature which can be seen in the vastly similar away attendances. Fulham can double our home attendance for example but when we was in League 1 we had a consistently better away average than them and they were in the Prem

I would say that outside of local derbies in London the 4 biggest rivalries across the city are a combination of Chelsea, West Ham, Spurs and Millwall. You can definitely throw Arsenal in there but I don’t think Arsenal is as big a game to any of those teams (bar Spurs of course) as playing any of those, though Chelsea fans will enjoy the silverware battles you’ve won over Arsenal. It all comes down to hooliganism and class and you’d never really put Arsenal in the mix with the likes of Spurs, Chelsea, West Ham or Millwall. I think any other cross city derby that doesn’t involve those four is a bit of a stretch for that same intensity. The only reason Arse al are mentioned is because they’re the biggest London club, but I don’t think the hatred runs as deep between Arsenal and the other clubs compared to the hatred they held between each other

[Viva la FCB+]

12 hours ago, Spike said:

In Brian's defence he does have high-functioning autism, if I am aware enough. That is why I always cut him some slack in arguments. 

Fair enough then I suppose. I kind of stopped making digs at him and stopped getting involved personally, no real point but that one was too hard to pass up.

[Viva la FCB+]

6 hours ago, Harry said:

Good example of loyalty...

 

Del Piero was my first true love.

[Spike]

It's probably easier to be loyal to Juventus when you've won everything, earned millions, and are adored by the fans; that doesn't make it any less respected or appreciated though. I just think the circumstances need to be examined, for instance Baggio didn't want to leave Fiorentina, but he did; and the fans hold that against Juventus not Baggio.

 Antonio Di Natale was one of the best forwards in Europe for a spell, and he stayed at Udinese despite the rich Italian clubs trying to sign him, I think it's more impressive that he stayed at Udinese and became the sixth highest scoring player in Serie A history. Think about that! He has more goals in less games than Roberto Baggio.

[Dan+]

Don't West Ham and Arsenal not mind each other or did I make that up.

[Teso dos Bichos]

sirbalon,  just blame it on mixing xannies with liquor and in a few days, the thread will become irrelevant.. the quicker you move on from this epic meltdown, the better. 

Although I enjoyed your teso-esque posts, it really doesn't suit you my friend.  Dont let ruckwhattfever do you again like he did tonight. 

[The Liquidator]

@carefreeluke
 Yes you are correct, The spurs fixture has the most hate attached too it. Funny enough most other London clubs detest Spurs too. For me it became a deeper feeling when Alan Sugar let the Spurs secret out of the bag when he took over the club. At that time I could never work out why my own club couldnt attract the same level of players that seemed to turn up at Spurs every other year. Turns out they were fucking cheating.

Our local professional clubs all have a inbred hate for us which is understandable as the small are jealous of the Big. I went for years without knowing a QPR fan and then like London Buses 3 turned up at once, all equally as demented as the other n surly related to Liverpool fans.

One not mentioned here is the huge rivalry between us and Leeds United. This goes back to the late 60's and 70's which was both violent and exciting. If you ever get the chance to watch the 1970 cup final replay at old trafford it will give you a flavor what went on for a good 20 years after, both on and off the pitch.

[carefreeluke]

Feels like déjà vu.

Am I the only one that gets bothered by this in football these days? I started to get pissed off with Conte in his second season with us anyway but this escalates it even more.

[Dan+]

I think a sad reality that most of us, especially football romantics don't like coming to terms with is that circumstance dictates 95% of what happens in football. I suppose cherish what little loyalty there actually is.

Regarding Conte, it's no massive surprise - he's already managed Juventus and Inter.

[Harry]

I'd not expect much if any loyalty from managers these days given how little loyalty is ever shown to them by clubs.

I wouldn't want to see a manager quit Midway through a role to take another at a rival club, but outside of that my expectations are low. 

[LFCMike]

9 hours ago, carefreeluke said:

Feels like déjà vu.

Am I the only one that gets bothered by this in football these days? I started to get pissed off with Conte in his second season with us anyway but this escalates it even more.

Conte owes Chelsea nothing though does he? Chelsea sacked him.

[Stan]

25 minutes ago, Harry said:

I'd not expect much if any loyalty from managers these days given how little loyalty is ever shown to them by clubs.

I wouldn't want to see a manager quit Midway through a role to take another at a rival club, but outside of that my expectations are low. 

Good point - clubs very rarely show loyalty to managers. 

Precedent is somewhat set by Real Madrid (and ironically Chelsea) in some sense - win the Champions League but still lose your job. 

A manager can go on a winning run and outperform expectations. The moment they lose 4 or 5 in a row (through various circumstances) and the axe falls. There's no time to turn it around any more. 

[RandoEFC+]

Very naive point of view to expect managers to show that sort of loyalty for no personal gain, especially Conte who was at Chelsea for five minutes in the grand scheme of things.

Chelsea and Spurs also don't really have a 'taboo' type of rivalry like Arsenal and Spurs do, for example. Yet even the most bitter rivalries don't necessarily act as a deterrent these days, as evidenced by probably the most popular former Liverpool manager of our lifetime now managing Everton.

At the end of the day, jobs, wages, opportunities to win trophies are tangible things and loyalties to former clubs are not, especially in this era of the game where you can pick any manager at random and if they're any amount of time into their career like Conte is, they've probably managed half a dozen different clubs if not more, because your tenure at each club is so short. You can't go getting precious about upsetting fans of clubs who sacked you because eventually you'll end up "loyalling" your way into an early retirement (or the Chinese Super League).

[Waylander]

On 20/11/2019 at 14:56, SirBalon said:

I’ll write something extensive later on with this important subject. But for now George Graham is a great example if one didn’t know much about Graham then they’d think he was a total traitor seeing as he not only played for Arsenal and was also a terrace idol... He then went onto successfully coach them for many years.

Managing Spurs was a kick in the teeth but again, this without knowing much about him. Read his biographies and you won’t be so surprised at his pragmatism with a lack of any type of integrity.

He played for Chelsea as well before going to Arsenal in 66.

Guess he was from a time as a player when rivalries were less intense, 

Also if the previous team is doing well they don't mind so much think it is worse when a manger leaves a 'sinking ship' to join a rival who then goes onto success.

 

[Harry]

2 hours ago, Stan said:

Good point - clubs very rarely show loyalty to managers. 

Precedent is somewhat set by Real Madrid (and ironically Chelsea) in some sense - win the Champions League but still lose your job. 

A manager can go on a winning run and outperform expectations. The moment they lose 4 or 5 in a row (through various circumstances) and the axe falls. There's no time to turn it around any more. 

Agreed. Some would sack their manager if they thought it slightly improved their chances of 3 points in the next fixture. And although I hate it I understand it because many clubs don't have the luxury to stick by their man, as relegation can be a point of no return.

That said, I'd hate for Liverpool to have the Chelsea or real Madrid approach to management though, and be looking to sack the manager at the first sign of poor form.

[DeadLinesman]

Sir Matt played for Liverpool. It’s nothing new.

[Danny]

I think something to remember is the pool of clubs that can win something these days is becoming incredibly small, the European Super League does exist just within the Champions League. Managers will go to direct rivals more so now than maybe before because there isn’t much other choice. We also live in a culture where managers are sacked more often than previous decades

[Ploughendplonker]

Considering how quickly managers get sacked if results don't go their way, regardless of which club they're at, I don't think they owe anything to former clubs. 

If a manager rejected a job offer from another club, whilst I would respect their loyalty, I would think they were daft because the loyalty is rarely, if ever, a two-way street. 

[Dr. Gonzo]

On 03/11/2021 at 16:17, carefreeluke said:

Feels like déjà vu.

Am I the only one that gets bothered by this in football these days? I started to get pissed off with Conte in his second season with us anyway but this escalates it even more.

Loyalty's a 2 way street, tbh. Can't be upset at a former sacked manager feeling like he owes his club no loyalty when the club didn't show him much loyalty either. And it's Conte, when he went back to Italy it was his mission to stop them from winning 10 league titles in a row (and he was a big part of getting consecutive titles for them) - that's a manager that's been happy to show his disloyalty to clubs that weren't loyal to him.

We live in a world where a poor run of form can have the media and clubs calling for the manager's head... even if that manager has earned a lot of credit for the good work that was done (I don't think any Liverpool fans were calling for Klopp's head last season when we were in our worst ever run of form in our history, because he's done enough to earn our trust. But the media and particularly fans of other clubs were quite giddy at the prospect of him being sacked after that bad run of form).

It's a career path where generally the employee isn't shown much loyalty from the employer... so employers shouldn't expect much loyalty from managers either.

[Dr. Gonzo]

Sidenote: @RandoEFC & @Whiskey... remember when Watford fans were up in arms about Silva joining Everton? 

Looking back on it, it's actually hilarious because Watford are probably the least loyal club to their managers in the top flight. But they taste a bit of disloyalty from their former manager for a second and they act as though the club that ended up with their manager forced them to eat turds.

Dunno how fans of clubs that treat managers as incredibly disposable can get upset if they decide to take another job. A manager moving from Watford to Everton is taking a step up to a club that'll offer him more in the way of ambition - if I was working somewhere where you can get sacked for basically meeting expectations (because I feel like that's a bit like what Watford are like)... I'd absolutely snap up the next job offer I got at a place I viewed as a step up.

Anyone would. I dunno why we expect managers to have higher standards of loyalty to their employers when they really aren't shown too much loyalty and in some cases aren't really shown any loyalty at all.